Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity

[telecom]

I think I know what you mean - the chain is not rigid enough to transfer the torque positively.

[nybtorque]

@nybtorque:  I believe pumping water is not the same because you must constantly accelerate new mass as new water enters, and that will require additional work.

Yes, but that is exactly what the centrifugal force of the rotating "garden hose" is doing!


Consider replacing the the thread and bottle opener with a hose filled with water and rotate it... Lets say its an 3/4" hose and its 2m long and you swing it above your head at 96 rpm (10 rad/s). That equals 0.57 kg of water, and with the center of the water mass rotating with a 1m radius, we get the force Fc=10^2*0.57*1=57N and kinetic energy Ek=10^2*1^2*0.57/2=28.5J.


So what mass of water do you need  to reach equilibrium with the rest of the hose hanging down at the center of the rotation? Well, to get m*g=57N you need 5.7kg of water to keep the rotating water from escaping through the open end of the hose...   Thats a 20m long hose hanging straight down...


But, what if the it is only 2m (suction head) from the swinging hose above your head to the water bucket you're trying to pump? What will happen?


The way I see it, there will be a net force of 51.3 N acting on the rotating water wanting it to escape. That would translate to an average pressure of 180 kPa in the 3/4" hose.


Of course new water will need to be accelerated at all times. With a mass of 0.57 kg rotating, it will accelerate by the centrifugal force at 90 m/s2 (F=ma) from 0 velocity at the center of equilibrium to an escape velocity of 9.5 m/s at the open end of the hose. That equals a flow of about 2.7 l/s and a pumping power of 487W...  And this is just by keep rotation at the same rpm, i.e. no extra kinetic energy have to be added since the mass, radius and angular velocity is unchanged.

[LibreEnergia]

Lets consider the experiment below. A bottle opener and a garlic press, connected with a thin thread through a ring. Hold the ring between your fingers and spin the bottle opener around to reach an equilibrium where the the centrifugal force of the rotating bottle opener keeps the garlic press in a constant position.


If we assume that the mass of the garlic press is 200g and the bottle opener mass is 50g and the radius of rotation is 20cm we need a rotational speed of 14 rad/s, i.e. 2.25 Hz.


To keep this rotational speed and equilibrium we need 0.2J of kinetic energy invested in the rotation.


This is all fine. But lets say we increase the rotational speed a little. What will happen?


Of course the garlic press will begin to move upwards since the centrifugal force will become larger than the gravitational force pulling the garlic press down... Actually, in theory an infinitesimal increase of kinetic energy (a one time energy input) in rotation of the bottle opener will be enough for a continuos movement (acceleration) against gravity for the garlic press and thereby an continuos increase in potential energy, i.e. infinite overunity...

Enjoy!

Your analysis is incorrect.

In the equilibrium position the gravitational potential energy of the garlic press would equal the energy of the rotating bottle opener. If you increase the rotation speed by applying work the garlic press moves up increasing its gravitation potential energy.
AND the radius of the rotation of the bottle opener increases.

If you do the sums you will find that the increase in in GPE = the increase in rotational kinetic energy  = work supplied to the system and the system finds a new equilibrium point. No excess of energy is left over and that is what would be required if it were 'OU'.

[nybtorque]

Your analysis is incorrect.

In the equilibrium position the gravitational potential energy of the garlic press would equal the energy of the rotating bottle opener. If you increase the rotation speed by applying work the garlic press moves up increasing its gravitation potential energy.
AND the radius of the rotation of the bottle opener increases.

If you do the sums you will find that the increase in in GPE = the increase in rotational kinetic energy  = work supplied to the system and the system finds a new equilibrium point. No excess of energy is left over and that is what would be required if it were 'OU'.

Well, that is exactly what I described in a later post. However, I came to a different conclusion. So please show me your numbers for exactly what happens with the potential energy of the garlic press if you increase the kinetic energy of the bottle opener with a specific amount... Only stating that my analysis is incorrect doesn't do it for me unless you show me where! It should be easy enough.



Clue: you need to explain it using the following equations;
w² * m_bo * r  = m_gp * g    (the force equilibrium regardless of w and r) and 
E_kin = ¹/₂ * w² * r² * m_bo (kinetic energy, regardless of w and r) and
E_pot = m_gp * g * (r_after-r_before) (potential energy after the increase in E_k which will result in a new equilibrium with a new w and r)

[broli]

Take a look at this torque increasing drive wheel, as the blue disk rotates with all the attached gears and weights, the weights will want to move outward.

The outward movement rotates the center gear with increased torque dependent on the RPM of the disk and the value of the weights.
The system cannot produce back torque or it would be able to do work from gravity and this is impossible, but the increase in torque could be valuable if used correctly.
If an electric motor was used to turn the disk then the weights would simply fly outward and the center gear would rotate the same speed as the disk, but as a load on the center gear increases, like from a generator under load, the weights would want to rotate back inward to the 90 degree position as shown. This applies no additional load on the driving motor.

Now, if the generator was connected to a load like the grid, where the load could sink very large currents, a circuit could be built to keep the weights at the 90 degree point by varying the load on the generator. The motor is now free to spin the disk faster and faster, further increasing the output without any additional load but with huge additional output.

Centrifugal force put to work.

It's good to be optimistic, but the only way to know what you said is true or not is to build and experiment. If you want I can help.