Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile

[Omnibus]

@Stefan, pendulum thread is almost as long as the height of the room ? you can get a feeling for the dimensions of the room from the video.

Yes, he does exactly that ? the magnets are on the floor, randomly spread (he tosses change and places magnets where the coins are, heads or tails corresponding to S and N poles) and he swings the pendulum over them.

I don?t think there was a situation whereby the pendulum magnet never stopped swinging. It always comes to a rest but sometimes deflected from the equilibrium at a certain height over the floor.

As far as the time goes, I don?t have quantitative results. Will be good to carry out a thorough study applying some way to measure, say, the exact length of the trajectory of the pendulum over the magnets and compare it with the length of the trajectory of the regular pendulum.

[hartiberlin]

@Stefan, you wrote:

Ã,“Exactly this is happening.
You are bringing the iron ball into the field of the permanent magnet
and then you are removing the permanent magnet again as the ball rolls on.Ã,”

Not exactly. Think about who is doing what. ItÃ,’s easier to understand it in terms of a SMOT. The net energy when the steel ball travels along a closed loop is zero Ã,â€" put the ball at the entrance of the ramp, let it go up the ramp, let it fall off the ramp and then bring it back to the beginning of the ramp. In doing so no net energy has been gained in the magnetic field. Magnetic field is a conservative field. Whatever energy has been gained when the ball was attracted by the magnet (heating in your terms) is lost upon the return of the ball to the initial position (equivalent cooling has taken place).

The excess energy we are so much concerned about is produced in the gravitational field Ã,â€" magnetic field has lifted the ball spontaneously (in the gravitational field) to a height h and gravitational energy mgh has been imparted to the ball at the expense of no energy spent. This is the excess energy (in simplified terms) which is created out of nothing and which, if the device is properly made, makes it self-sustaining.

Omnibus,
surely gravity also helps in the Finsrud device,
but this might be just a storage field it is using.
( to temporarly store the height difference)

I guess, whatever its main function principle is,
the 1st law is not violated, but just the second "law"
and that heat-conversion is also at play,
also if you can?t see and measure it directly,
as the power is only in the milliWatts range.

But with very exact calorimetrical measurements
this heat conversion will probably also be seen.

Anyway, we should better concentrate to
build simular units or work out a better scaled
up device with more power output.
Regards, Stefan.

[hartiberlin]

@Stefan, pendulum thread is almost as long as the height of the room Ã,â€" you can get a feeling for the dimensions of the room from the video.

Yes, he does exactly that Ã,â€" the magnets are on the floor, randomly spread (he tosses change and places magnets where the coins are, heads or tails corresponding to S and N poles) and he swings the pendulum over them.

I donÃ,’t think there was a situation whereby the pendulum magnet never stopped swinging. It always comes to a rest but sometimes deflected from the equilibrium at a certain height over the floor.

As far as the time goes, I donÃ,’t have quantitative results. Will be good to carry out a thorough study applying some way to measure, say, the exact length of the trajectory of the pendulum over the magnets and compare it with the length of the trajectory of the regular pendulum.

Yes, this would be a good first experiment to see,
if a pendulum of the same weight and
without magnets on the floor will swing a shorter
time period, than the 12 magnets experiments.

As Finsrud said, he got the idea to his device from
this experiment and that due to his "chaos theory"
the pendulum will never come to a still stand, when the optimum
magnets positions on the floor are found, this is probably
the main experiment, which should prove his theory right
or wrong.

Regards, Stefan.

[Omnibus]

Stefan, you know for a long time my contention that we don't even need other devices to prove violation of the first law f thermodynamics -- SMOT is enough for this purpose. As I explained in my previous posting, travel along a closed loop in a magnetic field leads to no net energy. Heating is negated by cooling. Violation of the first law occurs when in the gravitational field part of the closed loop is covered for free, spontaneously helped by the magnetic field. Just this example is quite enough to abolish the first law. No net heating and cooling. Simply producing of energy out of nothing, only due to proper disposition of the parts of the machine in overlapping conservative fields.

I can't agree more, however, that for a wider acceptance, every one of us should hold in his hand self-sustaining devices based on the above principle. It is well known that Greg Watson, the founder of this field has had closed-loop SMOTs and even sold some. He is nowhere to be found, however. A closed-loop SMOT of Greg Watson type is much simpler than Finsrud's device. I think Finsrud has added throughout the years redundancies which make it harder to reproduce. Anyway, replication by independent parties of any of these self-sustaining devices is crucial for wider acceptance of the perpetuum mobile concept.

[Gregory]

Hi Omnibus!

This is a great thread!

Thank you very much for the videos, amazing! I appreciate it very much.
I known the finsrud machine for years, and this is my favourite, which really works.

I read this discussion with interest, and have some thougts to say. I very agree with Finsrud and you, in the matter of building 3 dimensional machines rather than 2 dimensional. I also had this thought long before. With 3 dimensions we have more possibilities than with 2 dimensions. Nature works in 3 dimensions.

I don't think that Finsrud's machine violates the conservation of energy law. I think the long mentioned "perpetuum mobile" is possible without this violation.

I have a vision about this machine. It has very interesting properties. It's more an artwork, not just a machine, or an experiment. Best artwork in this category I've ever seen.
The main parts are: 6 magnets, 4 pendulums (with additional magnets), a circular track, and a steel ball. (Do I understand Right?)

In my opinion the machine have to be considered as a complex system. It uses motion to induce motion.
For the energy input, It uses the gravity force, the force of the magnets, and a "push" by a person to start. But once the system is started, it uses motion to induce motion, and uses the induced motion to induce a new one. Uses force to induce another force.

When the ball is moving, it causes the pendulums to keep swinging.
When the pendulums are swinging, they cause the sloping of the circle track and the moving of the magnets, And    these processes cause the ball to keep moving. And here we are...
Also, the cylindrical red (pot?) magnets cause the ball to "lose weight" in the proper positions, and this process help the pendulums to slope the circular track. I guess the lowest position of the track is (always?) before the ball in the direction where the ball is moving. Maybe it's less than 1 degree, but it can be enough.

Many people commited the fault of "making the track to change too much", and it didn't work. And we can see in Finsrud's machine, small differences can achieve great effects, if everything are in the correct relation. For me it looks some kind of balance. Or a kind of "balanced unbalance". When it's in synch, it capable to operate for long periode of time.

I wonder what to do, with the small vibrations... They're very intersting, and artistic. I guess the vibrations are not the main principles of the machine, but in the other hand... There are some truth in them, as Finsrud mentions. When many small vibrations act together in the right way, it can achieve a considerable effect, right? Just think freely, not only about this machine... This vibration thing is pretty strange... And artistic...

Now, back to the conservation of energy for some unusual example...
Take a cup of tea, or a steel cube...   And place on the table. What happens? Nothing?
The object stay on the table, and don't move. But... This cup of tea continously receives the force of gravity, and produce a force against the table. However, the table is strong enough to keep the cup in its position, and no motion occur. With more precise words, the cup of tea uses 100% of gravity input and produces 0% useful work. So this "device" has an efficiency of 0%.
Now lets place a steel ball on the table. If the table is perfectly horizontal, the same happens. But maybe the table slopes a bit, and if the ball weight enough, begins to bowl. What happens?
The ball receives 100% of the gravity force, and converts perhaps 1% to movement.

Similar to Finsrud's machine... This is the reason why I think there is no need for the violation of the conservation law. Simply it isn't violated in my viewpoint. Maybe It can be violated somehow, if we think about galaxies and galaxies, but not here and now. (The same thing occurs with magnets, just a bit different.)

If somebody out there will present a machine next week, which is an operational gravity wheel, that device is also only capable to convert few percent of the total gravity force. But can have an important property: to do a few continous useful work. The most efficient device now, the steel ball, which you bring to the top of a skyscraper, and release it. However, this ball fall only once by itself, so can't do continous work, and not too useful.

About friction... I believe the friction is not the reason of the unsuccess. This is bullshit. The real reason is the lack of right (simple, natural) knowledge, the unknowness of the right ways.

The heat or the cool of the steel ball or other parts... I don't think it is important.
I think Finsrud himself never thought about a lot of scientific thing, you're talking about. Of course I can be wrong, but he don't needed to do that.
What I think is, he has his own imaginations and ideas, designed, performed his experiments, have done a lot of hard work with his new artwork, and finally let it move...

Thanks for him very much!

Greetings,