Magnet Myths and Misconceptions

[tinman]

It's incredible how if you want to believe something you can shoehorn your beliefs into your shoes until the point where they are on the edge of bursting open.

Chris, you you are just throwing everything out there except for what really counts - discuss a bar magnet itself.  Not the sun, not pictures of ferrofluid, no talk about the equator, etc.   With respect to ferrofluid, what it is showing you when it bulges up is that the ferrofluid is trying to find a spot where there is the minimum MPE, there is some GPE thrown in the balancing process, and then there is surface tension affecting all of that.   In layman's terms, when you see the spiked bulges in the ferrofluid under the influence of a magnet, it's like when you drop your umbrella on the floor.  The umbrella wants to find the lowest GPE state - so it doesn't float in the air, it doesn't fall to the floor standing on end - it falls onto the floor and lays down flat on the floor.   That's what the ferrofluid spikes are doing also - falling "down."

The is no discontinuity as you travel across the center line of a bar magnet, none!  By definition a Bloch Wall is a discontinuity.

Tinman:

Nope, there is no such thing as the field lines switching from "north" to "south" as you cross the center of a magnet.  The field lines just have a direction.  At any point anywhere around the magnet there is a detectable field around the magnet.  The magnetic field is a vector, it has magnitude and direction.  We have simply adopted a convention for a bar magnet to designate the magnetic field as being "north" or "south."  But the truth is the only thing there is is magnitude and direction.

Take the example of Kenny and his bean sprout growing experiments.  He claimed something like seeds grown under the influence of a north field grow better than the seeds grown under the influence of a south field.  I don't think he provided any specifics beyond that but I'm not sure.

Here is the problem:  If you point the north end of a magnet at the seeds, and the magnet is under the seeds, it will be the same a pointing the south end of a magnet at the seeds when the magnet is over the seeds.

(seeds)
  N
  S

is equal to

  N
  S
(seeds)

Do you see that?  What the seeds experience is a function of the pole pointed at the seeds and the position of the magnet.  I somehow doubt that Kenny ever specified the position.

Anyway, I am not shocked about this debate with Chris because I am jaded.  But believe me, it is absolutely shocking.  It's absolutely shocking how basic scientific concepts about electricity and magnetism can be used and abused by pulp pseudoscience writers out there.  The writers can be deluded themselves, or, they are just cynical manipulators of other people in search of a dollar.

Like, what the hell was that Bedini "windmill motor" all about that was eventually sold for scrap?   The answer is that it was junk scrap from the very beginning.  It was nothing more than a prop for a conference.  And like I always say, at those conferences they will not teach you how an inductor works, and by the same token they will presumably not teach you how magnetic fields work.

MileHigh

MH
I will have to disagree with you on this one in regards to the field surrounding the whole magnet.The north and south analogy is simply me sticking with what people understand. If MarkE wants to stick to things we were taught at school,then north and south it is-you cant have your cake and eat it aswell. I know that there is not a north or south pole(you know this),nor are there field lines as such(this i have said in this thread). I am simply useing the terms that most are familiar with,and taught at school.

First up-what is a bloch wall?. Quote: A Bloch wall is a narrow transition region at the boundary between magnetic domains. So now what is a magnetic domain?-Quote: A magnetic domain is a region within a magnetic material which has uniform magnetization. This means that the individual magnetic moments of the atoms are aligned with one another and they point in the same direction.

Well we know if we turn the alignment of the atoms around at mid point in the magnet,we would end up with two like poles at each end of the magnet. So this brings us to the correct conclusion that there is NO bloch wall at the mid point between the two poles of a magnet,and that a bloch wall can only exist where the magnetic moments of the atoms are not aligned with each other.

The field around a magnet however is not a uniform flow as it is through the center of the magnetic material. There are many experiments that can show a 0(or very close to)external magnetic field strength at the mid point of a magnet.How ever,the field strength in the center of the magnetic material is at it's strongest. If we look at the diagram below(one of the actual test i have performed),we can see three steel balls(in green) The magnet is a cylinder magnet(sizes in diagram). When the steel ball is placed in the center of the two poles on the outside of the magnet,the ball will roll to one end or the other,depending on which side the ball is off center. This is the ball being attracted to the strongest part of the magnetic field. But if we put the steel ball into the whole that is through the magnets center,the steel ball will be drawn to the center of the magnet-not either end. This is because the field strength is at it's highest in the center of the magnetic material. The dark blue figure 8 line represents field strength.

[EMJunkie]

It's incredible how if you want to believe something you can shoehorn your beliefs into your shoes until the point where they are on the edge of bursting open.

Chris, you you are just throwing everything out there except for what really counts - discuss a bar magnet itself.  Not the sun, not pictures of ferrofluid, no talk about the equator, etc.   With respect to ferrofluid, what it is showing you when it bulges up is that the ferrofluid is trying to find a spot where there is the minimum MPE, there is some GPE thrown in the balancing process, and then there is surface tension affecting all of that.   In layman's terms, when you see the spiked bulges in the ferrofluid under the influence of a magnet, it's like when you drop your umbrella on the floor.  The umbrella wants to find the lowest GPE state - so it doesn't float in the air, it doesn't fall to the floor standing on end - it falls onto the floor and lays down flat on the floor.   That's what the ferrofluid spikes are doing also - falling "down."

The is no discontinuity as you travel across the center line of a bar magnet, none!  By definition a Bloch Wall is a discontinuity.

Tinman:

Nope, there is no such thing as the field lines switching from "north" to "south" as you cross the center of a magnet.  The field lines just have a direction.  At any point anywhere around the magnet there is a detectable field around the magnet.  The magnetic field is a vector, it has magnitude and direction.  We have simply adopted a convention for a bar magnet to designate the magnetic field as being "north" or "south."  But the truth is the only thing there is is magnitude and direction.

Take the example of Kenny and his bean sprout growing experiments.  He claimed something like seeds grown under the influence of a north field grow better than the seeds grown under the influence of a south field.  I don't think he provided any specifics beyond that but I'm not sure.

Here is the problem:  If you point the north end of a magnet at the seeds, and the magnet is under the seeds, it will be the same a pointing the south end of a magnet at the seeds when the magnet is over the seeds.

(seeds)
  N
  S

is equal to

  N
  S
(seeds)

Do you see that?  What the seeds experience is a function of the pole pointed at the seeds and the position of the magnet.  I somehow doubt that Kenny ever specified the position.

Anyway, I am not shocked about this debate with Chris because I am jaded.  But believe me, it is absolutely shocking.  It's absolutely shocking how basic scientific concepts about electricity and magnetism can be used and abused by pulp pseudoscience writers out there.  The writers can be deluded themselves, or, they are just cynical manipulators of other people in search of a dollar.

Like, what the hell was that Bedini "windmill motor" all about that was eventually sold for scrap?   The answer is that it was junk scrap from the very beginning.  It was nothing more than a prop for a conference.  And like I always say, at those conferences they will not teach you how an inductor works, and by the same token they will presumably not teach you how magnetic fields work.

MileHigh

To be quite honest you people sound like good people, as nearly all are! You're all welcome to your opinions. Your opinions are yours and you have come to them for your own reasons!

MileHigh - You started off criticizing my work: "This is a totally retarded clip and you Chris Sykes should be ashamed for putting crap like this on YouTube.  Any astute 15-year-old kid that did well in grade 10 physics could refute this nonsense and prove it is not true by working with a test setup on a bench...."

Really, you don't understand it, and cant make it work because you don't understand it, so the first thing you do is criticize. A Natural reaction for people that don't understand! Natural for people that don't and or cant grasp Ideas and others Opinions that they have come to from their own Research, Deductions and Experiments.

My point is, for many years, I have shown effects and operations in devices that are IMPOSSIBLE in any Transformer using Your Conventional theories. People in History that you seem to idolise, only after death, that also have shown the same or similar effects and operations in devices that are IMPOSSIBLE in any Transformer using Your Conventional theories! And yet, here in this forum, you try to replicate, learn from and also at the same time build your own working units that NEVER WORK!

These behaviours are doomed for eternal failures and frustration. Behaviours that will endlessly ensure that you pay for Gas at the Bowser, Electricity at the Meter and in one hundred years time it will still not have changed!

Here in this forum, I have left Ideas, I hope I have sparked someone's intuition, helped others looking for answers and anything else that may be beneficial. Magnet Myths and Misconceptions will always exist well beyond the lifetime of this forum!

I will leave you with this: "When a Transformer is loaded, there is a NET ZERO Magnetic Field. This means the Ampere Turns on the primary are equal but opposite to the Ampere Turns on the secondary, or close to it."

Why? Why is this significant?


More debate is pointless!

[MarkE]

Tinman, kindly show that you can make anything align to the supposed magnetic lines of force in your diagram.

[MarkE]

To be quite honest you people sound like good people, as nearly all are! You're all welcome to your opinions. Your opinions are yours and you have come to them for your own reasons!

MileHigh - You started off criticizing my work: "This is a totally retarded clip and you Chris Sykes should be ashamed for putting crap like this on YouTube.  Any astute 15-year-old kid that did well in grade 10 physics could refute this nonsense and prove it is not true by working with a test setup on a bench...."

Really, you don't understand it, and cant make it work because you don't understand it, so the first thing you do is criticize. A Natural reaction for people that don't understand! Natural for people that don't and or cant grasp Ideas and others Opinions that they have come to from their own Research, Deductions and Experiments.

My point is, for many years, I have shown effects and operations in devices that are IMPOSSIBLE in any Transformer using Your Conventional theories. People in History that you seem to idolise, only after death, that also have shown the same or similar effects and operations in devices that are IMPOSSIBLE in any Transformer using Your Conventional theories! And yet, here in this forum, you try to replicate, learn from and also at the same time build your own working units that NEVER WORK!

These behaviours are doomed for eternal failures and frustration. Behaviours that will endlessly ensure that you pay for Gas at the Bowser, Electricity at the Meter and in one hundred years time it will still not have changed!

Here in this forum, I have left Ideas, I hope I have sparked someone's intuition, helped others looking for answers and anything else that may be beneficial. Magnet Myths and Misconceptions will always exist well beyond the lifetime of this forum!

I will leave you with this: "When a Transformer is loaded, there is a NET ZERO Magnetic Field. This means the Ampere Turns on the primary are equal but opposite to the Ampere Turns on the secondary, or close to it."

Why? Why is this significant?

In an ideal transformer "close to it" applies. This is ordinary and expected behavior of a transformer.  It's a good thing too, because otherwise transformers would have to be much larger.  Why do you think this ordinary and expected behavior is special?

More debate is pointless!

[tinman]

Kindly show that you can make anything align to the supposed magnetic lines of force in your diagram.

Are you refering to me Mark?
First up,there are NO magnetic field lines of force-only a magnetic field.The strength of that field is as i have pictured it in my diagram. I can see once again i will be spending my time on something you could perform your self.No feromagnetic materia is attracted(or has a very weak attraction) to the center of a magnet where my lines cross.