Magnet Myths and Misconceptions

[tinman]

Question-Lets look at this from current science's point of view. What explanation do they have as to why a magnetic field can exert a force on magnetically active materials?. As far as i know,they dont have one. What force/particles that have no mass can exert a force on a mass.

Answer-.Permeable, IE magnetically active materials present a low resistance (reluctance) to flux.  In a given field magnetic flux concentrates in permeable material in a similar fashion to given some pressure drop and parallel pipes, more water flows through larger cross-section area pipes than the smaller cross-section area pipes.  Common magnetic materials have permeabilities, IE lower reluctance per unit length compared to vacuum of a thousand or more to one.  Imagine the difference in fluid flow between a 16" pipe and a half inch pipe.  When the pipes are aligned to the flow there is no torque against them.  Similarly, when a permeable material is aligned in a magnetic field there is no torque against it.  If we turn either a pipe or a piece of permeable material versus the flux a torque develops

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This makes no sense at all as water has mass. So it gives no real indication as to how a magnet can apply a force on a magnetically active material without that force having mass itself.

Well good, if you are comfortable that the magnetic field from one behaves the same as the magnetic field from the other then we can try and get insights by looking at them both

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No-we are looking at the PM,not an electromagnet. The ectromagnet has an electric field as well,the PM dose not.

the fact is that as TK says, we have been using this model to build all manner of machines to high degrees of precision for over 100 years now.  We reliably predict just how "hot" they get, what kind of mileage, torque etc.  So, we must be doing something right

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This is one of those misconceptions. How would my theory of a magnetic field change the way anything opperates today?. I might also point out the fact that TK uses examples that use electromagnetics,not permanent magnets(quote: this publication offers a pretty thorough explanation of how common electrodynamic machines work based on conventional theory:
-->one of the reasons we must separate the two.

But, if we could set-up a test where we have a decent sized region where the flux were absolutely straight and uniform, even at the poles things would be quite different.  We could then tell whether its the gradient that causes the force as conventional theory tells us, or distance from the pole "charges" as you believe.  Under those circumstances, I think you would expect that a little piece of iron would still be subject to rapidly increasing force close to each pole, whereas according to conventional theory it would not.  If in the same test we can also have a region where the field curves then according to conventional theory we would be able to see the force change quite a bit going from a region of little or no flux density gradient to a region with a large flux density gradient.

And how would this test setup be done-what would it look like?

Do we agree that ferromagnetic materials are strongly attracted to the poles of a magnet?

Yes

Do we agree that you see that attraction as either pole acting like gravity on a mass?

No. First you must be able to explain as to why and how gravity acts on a mass to be able to relate it to how a magnetic field acts on a mass.

If it could be shown that a test ferromagnetic object placed between two magnetic poles was stable in any position between those poles that you would be willing to rethink this idea

If a feromagnetic object is placed between two like pole's then it will not be stable and be repelled away,as it will not be attracted to two like charges. If the poles have opposite charges(north/south as we are calling them)then the feromagnetic material will be stable.

[NoBull]

soft iron is used and this doesn't retain magnetism well,

Even soft iron has come finite coercivity and will retain some magnetization after the external field is removed.
But for practical purposes this remanent magnetization is almost zero in modern soft ferrites.

also perhaps the material itself isn't really magnetised but is just concentrating the field.

...but how does it reach out and grab the flux in the space around it then?
If it isn't magnetized then you'd have to throw away the entire magnetic domain theory and observations with Kerr microscopes, etc...

[Pirate88179]

Yes, but when this external magnetic field is removed, then something unaligns the domains.
What do you call that "something" ?

But sometimes, they do not unalign...right?

I have a device my Dad built while at Bell Labs that magnetizes small tools like screwdrivers.  It has a simple coil inside and..you put the tool in the hole in the top, press the momentary button down for a few seconds and...your screwdriver will now hold screws for many years to come.

That tells me that this unalignment does not always happen...right?

Bill

[NoBull]

That tells me that this unalignment does not always happen...right?

Yes for not super soft ferrites.
The hardened ferromagnetic tip of a screwdriver has enough domain pinning that 1% of its magnetization remains after the external H field is removed and that 1% is enough to hold screws.
...but how do you call that "something" that causes the remaining 99% unalignment ?

[tinman]

Yes, but when this external magnetic field is removed, then something unaligns the domains.
What do you call that "something" ?

All magnetically active materials have a neutral charge(an even amount of positively and negatively charged particals throughout the object). Each pole of a magnet has only one charge-one pole positive and one pole negative,and each of these is attracted to a neutral charge(our magnetically active object) Depending on the material will depend on how well the object retains it's neutral charge through the mass of the object when the induced external charge(magnetic field) is removed. Some materials can achieve charge separation quite easly(eg.metals like your screwdriver is made of) when a magnetic field is induced into that object,and this is called residual magnetism(a small amount of charges have been separated). Some materials(like ferrite) are very difficult to separate there charges,and when the induced magnetic field is removed,the charges remain neutral.But once separated(usually by a highly concentraited and powerful magnetic pulse),this charge separation is very stable. Neodymium magnets are very strong because the material allows for a very large charge separation.