Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?

[MarkE]

The induced opposition is immediate at the location of a secondary coil but the phase delay causes this opposition to be seen shifted in time from the primary point of view.

I agree.  But induction is where the flux is.  In this case the secondary.

We have a long core with 2 coils at its ends and You telling me that there is no delay in induction in the secondary?
I do not understand what You are saying.

Again:  Induction is where the flux is.  And where the flux is there is no delay in the induced EMF.

And please answer my question from the previous post.

I will go back to it and answer it if I have not already done so.

[MarkE]

Would it not be easier and simpler to say !phase correct!,or are the coils in phase with each other-->or even polarity correct?.
In which case,they are. And either way,why are they out of phase?.

The phase delay can be caused by several things.  Because you are only using resistors and inductors, the induced current should only go from being in phase with the inducing EMF to lagging it.  There is insufficient information so far to determine which coil is leading.  If you capture a one time step then which is leading and which is lagging will be self-evident.

So who wants to tell me why or how(in this simple setup)that two coils on the same core that are polarity correct,can be out of phase with each other? And why can i shift that phase veriation simply by adjusting the load on one of the coil's?. Also note that it is the coil that is furtherest away from the rotor that is leading in phase. If it is the magnetic field that induces the current in the inductor's,then this clearly show's either a delay of that field in one inductor,or an advanced field in the other.

The phase shift through an L/R network depends on the relative magnitude of the inductive reactance at the driven frequency to the resistance.  Changing the resistance changes that ratio and therefore the phase shift.

Oh but wait-there's more.
1st-there is no reflection what so ever on the prime mover when the secondary coil is loaded,as you can see on the scope shot's,the Hz didnt change with varing loads.101.761Hz with both load's-it dosnt come much more accurate than that.The DMM also never changed,not even by .1mA
2nd-with the secondary coil loaded with a set load,the primary coil will produce the same voltage across a 100 ohm resistor as it will over a 220ohm resistor,a 470 ohm resistor,and a 1k resistor.
There is no speed up under load,but there is also no change to P/in or rpm when the secondary is loaded.

When loading a secondary does not affect the load seen by the primary it means that the primary and secondary have poor coupling.

[kEhYo77]

Induction is where the flux is.  And where the flux is there is no delay in the induced EMF. I will go back to it and answer it if I have not already done so.

Please elaborate on that. Right now it is a bit murky explanation.


What causes the induction of current in a coil at an end of our long core is the change in magnetic field in the immediate vicinity of that coil,
so only within the volume of space close to copper and a short core part at the end. The flux is already there. Every magnetic domain
is attached to magnetic flux going through it at all times but their direction is random (mainly oriented to Earth's magnetic field).
It is the moment when all those fluxes line up in unified direction (causing net change in unified now magnetic fluxes sum) things start to get interesting.
But this magnetization arrived there in the form of a wave front, decoupled from the source by the mere existence of space and distance and propagation limits.
Any counter reaction obeys the same laws of interaction between neighboring domains and and a wave front of that change has to travel some distance to be felt by the source.

[MarkE]

Please elaborate on that. Right now it is a bit murky explanation.

I think it is quite simple:  Faraday + Lenz, and Maxwell / Heavyside both give us EMF across a conductor when changing magnetic flux impinges the conductor orthogonally.  That effect is instant to the impinging field.  No impinging field and no induction.

What causes the induction of current in a coil at an end of our long core is the change in magnetic field in the immediate vicinity of that coil,

Exactly, so from a timing perspective we want to know when flux changes impinge that coil.

so only within the volume of space close to copper and a short core part at the end. The flux is already there. Every magnetic domain
is attached to magnetic flux going through it at all times but their direction is random (mainly oriented to Earth's magnetic field).
It is the moment when all those fluxes line up in unified direction (causing net change in unified now magnetic fluxes sum) things start to get interesting.

It's changing flux that induces EMF.  Static flux is of no concern.

But this magnetization arrived there in the form of a wave front, decoupled from the source by the mere existence of space and distance and propagation limits.

On a nanosecond scale yes.  Otherwise we are talking about eddy currents and/or magnetic viscosity effects as the source of delay.

Any counter reaction obeys the same laws of interaction between neighboring domains and and a wave front of that change has to travel some distance to be felt by the source.

Sure.

[picowatt]

Well this is interesting,but i have just found the reverse. I have been setting up a test bed generator system to test many different configuration's,and have just found out that the coil furtherest away can in actual fact be leading in phase . Im not sure why this is,but it is.I am using 1 ferite C core with the primary coil rapped around it,and a second C core the same that forms a D core. The coil on the D core is leading in phase to that of the coil on the C core that the magnets pass through.

Below is a pic of the setup(1st pic)
2nd pic is of the two coils and two C core's.
1st scope shot is with a 10 ohm load(resistor) across the secondary coil(back coil furtherest away from the rotor). This is the yellow trace. The primary coil(one nearest to the rotor) has a 100 ohm resistor across it at all times,and this is the blue trace on the scope.
2nd scope shot is with a 100 ohm load(resistor) across the secondary coil.

So who here can tell me why the secondary coil is leading in phase to that of the primary coil?. Why is there a phase lag on the coil closest to the magnet's?How is the magnetic field phase being delayed in the primary when it is that coil that is closest to the magnets on the rotor?.

Tinman,

You might consider adding a pickup coil to generate an external trigger for your scope so that you can be certain which coil is actually leading.

A small pickup coil could be positioned next to the leading edge of one of the main core's poles to ensure that the generated trigger pulse leads the phase of both the primary/secondary coil outputs.  Although a bit more difficult to implement, you could also generate a trigger optically if you feel a magnetic pickup coil affects your results. However, I'd try a small pickup coil first.

PW