Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?

[MarkE]

No one can make heads nor tails out of anything you monkeys say. You grifters have been running a "Back Alley Shell and Pea Game" the enire time for your "Tar Sand" payolla group. Your're completely shameless about trying to dupe the learners. I refuse to let you get away with it.

What I need help with is to determine what effect magnets have on core viscosity and phase lag. All you three have done is side track this branch of research. Last year this time, Milehigh bombed in on my Conradelectro magnet core coil test and caused a serious problem. Nothing meaningfull has taken place in the meantime.

Synchro1 if you put away:  1) Junk like your first paragraph, and 2) Your preconceived ideas then it would be a lot easier to communicate a correct explanation to you of what is going on.  So in the spirit of the season:

Two effects that can cause a magnetic field to change in time are:  image currents, and magnetic viscosity.  Image currents, IE eddy currents create opposing magnetic fields.  If you had access to nifty expensive instruments you would be able to do things like map the time response of force in a magnetic actuator versus current in the exciting coil.  You would readily see that all the time that the current is changing in the coil and then for some time beyond that in cores where eddy currents can flow freely, there is a big lag in mechanical force.  You would see how insulated laminations greatly reduce the image currents and the lag.  Ways that you could see those effects without expensive instruments include simply measuring performance of a transformer that uses laminations, and then replacing that core with one machined from ingot iron.

The second effect:  magnetic viscosity expresses delay in the rotation of magnetic domains in ferromagnetic material when exposed to a change in external field.  Behaviorally this is very similar to what happens with image currents. 

In either case what you see from the outside is a lag in the strength and orientation of a magnetic field in the vicinity of high permeability material, IE ferromagnetic materials like iron, steel, nickle, cobalt etc.

To see if one could utilize this behavior for some purpose one needs to understand that things in this world fall into four categories:

1) Things that dissipate energy:  resistors, friction devices etc.  These are things that present a force that always opposes flow of current in the resistor case, or direction of motion in the case of friction. 

2) Things that store energy:  water columns, flywheels, springs, capacitors, inductors.  In the ideal case no stored energy is lost before it is transferred out of storage.

3) Things that convert energy:  electric motors, solar panels, combustion engines all convert energy from some source into a form more useful to the application.

4) The ever elusive OU or free energy thing.  This is something that either converts energy from a source yet to be recognized, or creates energy ex-nihilo. 

Induction devices of all kinds are a mix of 1) and 2).  The hope put forth for so called "Delayed Lenz Effect" devices is that by using phenomena that cause a time delay that BEMF can become forward EMF.  IOW that a changing magnetic field because it is routed through a delay can induce a current that will increase the strength of the field and cycle by cycle energy will build up leading to a vast surplus of energy. 

As long as the devices employed are limited to some combination of 1), and 2) such a scheme can never work.  Some amount of the source energy goes into and comes back out of storage 2), while some is dissipated 1).  Storage just holds some energy for some time and then gives it back.  It doesn't create the stuff.  It is a Japanese bank account.  Dissipation loses energy ultimately to waste heat.  Combine 1) and 2) in any combination that you like and you always end up with less than you started out with. 

Now, what can be done with storage is one can build resonant networks.  Resonant networks store energy by passing it back and forth from one stored form to another.  Resonant networks are energy storage devices.  The higher the Q of the network the greater the percentage of energy applied each cycle they retain.  High Q networks can accumulate energy for many, many cycles.  If unleashed all at once that can result in very high instant power levels, but power which operates only at a low duty cycle.  Total energy stored and ultimately released is still less than total energy input.

Using time delay to create a defacto resonance won't do what you want.  If you build a quarter wave delay in one direction then the resulting network looks like a short to the source:  A crest takes a quarter cycle to get to the end and bounce back, IE transfer little or no energy to the far end:  very high impedance.  By the time the crest returns to source, the source is now at a valley.  The difference between the crest and the valley is very large and lots of current flows.  The load looks like a short circuit.  And that is what quarter wave networks do:  present low impedance at one end and high impedance at the other.  If you double the length then you get a half wave network.  A half wave network returns the crest in phase with the next crest and bucks it:  presenting a high impedance.  If there are no losses along the path the transmission line takes virtually no energy from the source, and performs no work.  However if the far end takes energy the returning crest is smaller and energy passes into the transmission line as though the line is a transparent connection from the source end to the far end.

So, what you are hoping to find is 4).  There are a number of people who have proposed or claimed that energy can be coaxed out of the vacuum by various means.  Often they have suggested that exciting a resonant tank will make this happen.  In your case you hope like Steorn claimed that magnetic viscosity:  an energy loss mechanism can realize energy gain.  If you want to go looking for such a thing, be my guest. 

[synchro1]

Synchro1 if you put away:  1) Junk like your first paragraph, and 2) Your preconceived ideas then it would be a lot easier to communicate a correct explanation to you of what is going on.  So in the spirit of the season:

Two effects that can cause a magnetic field to change in time are:  image currents, and magnetic viscosity.  Image currents, IE eddy currents create opposing magnetic fields.  If you had access to nifty expensive instruments you would be able to do things like map the time response of force in a magnetic actuator versus current in the exciting coil.  You would readily see that all the time that the current is changing in the coil and then for some time beyond that in cores where eddy currents can flow freely, there is a big lag in mechanical force.  You would see how insulated laminations greatly reduce the image currents and the lag.  Ways that you could see those effects without expensive instruments include simply measuring performance of a transformer that uses laminations, and then replacing that core with one machined from ingot iron.

The second effect:  magnetic viscosity expresses delay in the rotation of magnetic domains in ferromagnetic material when exposed to a change in external field.  Behaviorally this is very similar to what happens with image currents. 

In either case what you see from the outside is a lag in the strength and orientation of a magnetic field in the vicinity of high permeability material, IE ferromagnetic materials like iron, steel, nickle, cobalt etc.

To see if one could utilize this behavior for some purpose one needs to understand that things in this world fall into four categories:

1) Things that dissipate energy:  resistors, friction devices etc.  These are things that present a force that always opposes flow of current in the resistor case, or direction of motion in the case of friction. 

2) Things that store energy:  water columns, flywheels, springs, capacitors, inductors.  In the ideal case no stored energy is lost before it is transferred out of storage.

3) Things that convert energy:  electric motors, solar panels, combustion engines all convert energy from some source into a form more useful to the application.

4) The ever elusive OU or free energy thing.  This is something that either converts energy from a source yet to be recognized, or creates energy ex-nihilo. 

Induction devices of all kinds are a mix of 1) and 2).  The hope put forth for so called "Delayed Lenz Effect" devices is that by using phenomena that cause a time delay that BEMF can become forward EMF.  IOW that a changing magnetic field because it is routed through a delay can induce a current that will increase the strength of the field and cycle by cycle energy will build up leading to a vast surplus of energy. 

As long as the devices employed are limited to some combination of 1), and 2) such a scheme can never work.  Some amount of the source energy goes into and comes back out of storage 2), while some is dissipated 1).  Storage just holds some energy for some time and then gives it back.  It doesn't create the stuff.  It is a Japanese bank account.  Dissipation loses energy ultimately to waste heat.  Combine 1) and 2) in any combination that you like and you always end up with less than you started out with. 

Now, what can be done with storage is one can build resonant networks.  Resonant networks store energy by passing it back and forth from one stored form to another.  Resonant networks are energy storage devices.  The higher the Q of the network the greater the percentage of energy applied each cycle they retain.  High Q networks can accumulate energy for many, many cycles.  If unleashed all at once that can result in very high instant power levels, but power which operates only at a low duty cycle.  Total energy stored and ultimately released is still less than total energy input.

Using time delay to create a defacto resonance won't do what you want.  If you build a quarter wave delay in one direction then the resulting network looks like a short to the source:  A crest takes a quarter cycle to get to the end and bounce back, IE transfer little or no energy to the far end:  very high impedance.  By the time the crest returns to source, the source is now at a valley.  The difference between the crest and the valley is very large and lots of current flows.  The load looks like a short circuit.  And that is what quarter wave networks do:  present low impedance at one end and high impedance at the other.  If you double the length then you get a half wave network.  A half wave network returns the crest in phase with the next crest and bucks it:  presenting a high impedance.  If there are no losses along the path the transmission line takes virtually no energy from the source, and performs no work.  However if the far end takes energy the returning crest is smaller and energy passes into the transmission line as though the line is a transparent connection from the source end to the far end.

So, what you are hoping to find is 4).  There are a number of people who have proposed or claimed that energy can be coaxed out of the vacuum by various means.  Often they have suggested that exciting a resonant tank will make this happen.  In your case you hope like Steorn claimed that magnetic viscosity:  an energy loss mechanism can realize energy gain.  If you want to go looking for such a thing, be my guest.

This is nothing but complete horseshit!

[Pirate88179]

This is nothing but complete horseshit!

Is this a scientific term?  Care to offer an explanation of what you mean by this?

I am curious.

Are you still claiming that Lenz's law has nothing to do with "Delayed Lenz effect"?  How does the Lenz effect differ from Lenz's law?

On its face, this appears to make no sense to me, which is why I am asking.

Thanks,

Bill

[synchro1]

Is this a scientific term?  Care to offer an explanation of what you mean by this?

I am curious.

Are you still claiming that Lenz's law has nothing to do with "Delayed Lenz effect"?  How does the Lenz effect differ from Lenz's law?

On its face, this appears to make no sense to me, which is why I am asking.

Thanks,

Bill

MarkE'S comment is too eclectic and obtuse to be of any value. He thinks too big. He's all over the map with a rambling comment that is completely directionless. All he's out to do is flummox people into thinking he's a top brain when he's just a phony punk. MarkE is guilty of "Free association". He can't stick to the point.

[minnie]

     synchro1,
              MarkE's a scientist and you're a skeptic. Interesting conflict, question is
  who will win?
                   John.