Open Systems

[MarkE]

The whole thread is about the stored energy within the HHO gas-->the mass of gas. You are the one that took it on yourself to deviate from the intended(and well defined) position of this thread.

You have latched onto Charles' Law which is a special case of the Ideal Gas Law.  I made no such restriction.  Moles in "n" always gives the right answer.  Under the special conditions that we have a particular gas, a mole of that gas has a fixed mass, and we can use mass as a proxy for "n" for that gas.  Special cases do not define the general case.

I have shown and explaind how and where the energy went to increase the pressure of the mass of gas. The energy required to increase the gas mass pressure is accounted for in the form of heat disipated by the system as a whole.

Choose which of the two real circumstances you want to work with:  The cylinder performs external work, or it doesn't.  In either case your premise fails.

As i explained above-and have proven-you have applied laws based around an ideal gas,and also not applicable to my setup. You continually take threads and side track them,and provide faulse and missleading information-->you have done this time and time again.

I spend the time to try and explain things to you out of respect for the fact that you actually perform experiments to try and find the truth.  However, when no amount of patient explanation seems able to dissuade you from your misconceptions we are going to reach a point where it is just a complete waste of time.   

You are free to judge for yourself and must judge for yourself whether what anyone says is: correct, mistaken, or intentionally wrong.  On these boards there are plenty of examples of each.  When doing so, you might wish to compare what you are told by any person or any group of people against other references that have good reputations, and/or show proofs. 

Now,time for you to back up your claim that these ideal gas laws apply to my system-AS IT IS

Others and myself have already done that.

Show me the tests carried out by the guru's that developed these 200 year old law's useing HHO gas as there test subject.

Start with Carnot.

Show me a decrease in heat energy within the stored gas when the piston is opperated--you cannot

Again start with Carnot.

And the reason you cant is because you know(well you should know) that there is no lose in heat energy within the gas when the piston is opperated-->how is your thermodynamics doing now in this situation.

They are doing just great.  Avail yourself to another teacher because I have been ineffective with you.  This may help you:  https://www.khanacademy.org/science/physics/thermodynamics/v/work-from-expansion

Next i want you to go and do some reserch on how the ideal gas laws were calibrated-->what type of vessel was used in these experiments. Then come back and tell us all-->i'll give you a little hint-->it was of a fixed volume, Now,is my gas containment vessel of a fixed size when the piston starts to opperate?

About time you put your money where your mouth is Mark,and start showing some truth to your claims.

And a comment from profitis you refuse to challenge because you know he is right.
Quote: Mark E and libre will continue to ignore the most important aspect of the system @tinman.the phase change liquid>gas.the gain is here and here alone

Now,spend 5 minutes and go look up profitis's claim,and let us know what you find.


It's time you stopped useing DC power messurements to try and calculate AC power.

If you are concerned with going down garden paths, then you should be very wary of what Profitis writes.

[pomodoro]

Remove the burner and electrolysis, they make no difference. Now prove the gas in the pipe from the piston, still at 120 psi, is cooler  from doing work, and there is your proof. Entropy is the key here as there is no phase change. Try calcs with piston with no load , then piston with full load.  All I know is that when I transfer argon at 4500 psi from onebottle to a smaller one thats empty, one gets cool, but the other gets very warm.

[profitis]

Pomodoro says:'Remove the burner and electrolysis, they make no difference.'

I say: E= RT/nf ln P.you have no choice but to trust this equasion.it was given to us by the establishment textbooks.in other words it is impossible to ignore the cancelling effect that a change in T has on E.

[profitis]

 mark E says:'be very wary of what Profitis writes.'

I say:' you will be utterly and helplessly forced by established physics to pay attention to the effect of temperature change on the most powerful equasion given to us by school textbooks: the nernst E= RT/nf ln P'

[LibreEnergia]

So did the work done on the piston create the heat?,or was the work done to compress the already existing heat into a smaller area?

Have a look at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/heat.html and answer the question yourself...


In case you are too lazy to do that, lets start with an easily verified fact.

If you compress a gas (ideal or otherwise) the temperature rises. (lets assume an insulated cylinder and rapid compression giving approximately adiabatic conditions.. ) You would agree? 

If the amount of substance did not change then we know for sure the internal energy of gas has increased since we both agree that internal energy is proportional to the quantity of stuff * temperature only.

Work and heat are interchangeable concepts.. one is converted to the other and vice versa during thermodynamic processes.

If you don't accept that then there is no hope for you ever understanding thermodynamics or realising why the process you propose does not work as you think.