Open Systems

[profitis]

Burning of fuels yes you will lose a lot of heat in the cycle.but the total energy balance remains unaltered : your total in from battery.combustion total out from burning.environment total from phase changes.3 seperate totals.3 seperate entities

[pomodoro]

It seems to me the answer to this puzzle is to forget the electrolysis and answer this question: Does the heater produce same heat when supplied by the gas from the tank bypassing the piston, as it does when supplied by the gas that's done the work in the piston.  I don't know the answer but on the surface it looks like an easy to solve thermo calc. What you reckon chaps?

[MarkE]

It seems to me the answer to this puzzle is to forget the electrolysis and answer this question: Does the heater produce same heat when supplied by the gas from the tank bypassing the piston, as it does when supplied by the gas that's done the work in the piston.  I don't know the answer but on the surface it looks like an easy to solve thermo calc. What you reckon chaps?

This is a pretty simple problem.  If the piston does external work, then as I said:  that work like Elvis has left the building.  Some of the PE in the gas has been sent out of the system in terms of external work and it is no longer available.  When the piston merely compresses a spring, then Profitis' best friend the second law comes to the fore.

[profitis]

Brb

[tinman]

It seems to me the answer to this puzzle is to forget the electrolysis and answer this question: Does the heater produce same heat when supplied by the gas from the tank bypassing the piston, as it does when supplied by the gas that's done the work in the piston.  I don't know the answer but on the surface it looks like an easy to solve thermo calc. What you reckon chaps?

Yes it dose,regardless of what Mark may say. Moving the piston is doing nothing more than enlarging the tank the gas is stored in-->but the amount of gas never changes,thus the energy contained within that gas also never changes-->joules per ltr remains. So regardless of wether the gas go's from the large tank,or via the way of the cylinder first,the same heat energy will be produced by that amount of gas. Mark will give you no reason at all as to how the energy stored within that gas can change just by moving the piston-->because it dosnt change. !ltr of gas is 1ltr of gas regardless of where it must flow to get to the heater. This is why we are useing HHO gas insted of compressed air,as the energy in compressed air is the pressure,where as with HHO,the prssure is a byproduct only-->and it is this byproduct we are gaining our extra energy from.
Mark also states that producing the HHO under pressure requires more energy per mole of gas,and while this is correct,he forgets the fact that more heat energy is produced at the same time-->energy is conserved. So while gas production may go down per joule of energy,heat energy production go's up by the same amount.

Opperating the piston,and gaining energy from this movement comes at no extra cost to the energy input of the system.