Steorn Debut's forever Battery at Slattery's

[profitis]

Correct mr hartiberlinIts complete assymetrical system.it is not symmetrical. a lil bit o reversability pinning and hey presto

[MarkE]

Okay,so TK and MarkE basically agree, that we see no induction coming from the 2 toroidal coils
when we measure at the power supply and we just rotate the permanent magnet rotor.

So this motor has seen from the power supply side on, no generator effect.

Nooo, what we agree upon is that you will not easily see BEMF appear on the top of the voltage waveform because it is very small when the toroid is saturated.  However, it is quite readily visible in its effect on altering the current rise time.  Now that TK has his hands on a digital scope again, he can if he wants to revisit that aspect.  If he wants to further see the generator effect riding on top of the saturated waveform that can be managed by changing the driver circuit to a constant current form, which only takes a couple of transistors.

So it is a motor without a generator effect.

Absolutely not.  It is a very inefficient motor that hides the BEMF when casual measurements are taken.  If you put a big low value resistor in parallel with a regular motor that will also disguise the BEMF and will also make the motor very inefficient.

If it can be made then overunity depends only on material and magnet
strength and design specifications.
Okay, the presented electric Orbo was probably not OU, cause it was much too small and
the cores were too lossy.
But normally, if you can build a motor that has no generator effect you can design it to
become OU, if you build it big enough a minimize the losses.
Also this motor will then have no Lenz law effect.

If you could, but you can't, and neither did Steorn.

[Red_Sunset]

Just so you know... I did literally _weeks_ of full time work, .................................
.........................., the difference in magnet attraction from an unpowered core, to a fully saturated core, is relatively small. There is _no repulsion_ and I don't think anyone, looking at the actual graphed data, would say that the effect is a "large difference". It does not depend on either the polarity of the current or the polarity of the magnet when the coil is properly wound; the effect is strictly due to the saturation of the core.
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TK, MarkE,
Thanks for your informative test based response, my stated repulsion effect after TDC exit was the result of a reasoning process, which appears flawed by an assumption that flux density can not increase beyond full core saturation regardless of magnetic drive input into that point space.

To get to the point quickly and correct me if I am wrong,  would it be safer to conclude that :
** "a solid core flux density is not limited by the saturation level of the material, rather by its property of an initial rapid increase in flux density up to the point of material saturation and thereafter the core flux density follows the same gradient as a regular air medium" **

With other words, "a core provides a "step stone" to the flux increase but will revert to an air-core gradient after saturation".

Regards, Red

[MarkE]

TK, MarkE,
Thanks for your informative test based response, my stated repulsion effect after TDC exit was the result of a reasoning process, which appears flawed by an assumption that flux density can not increase beyond full core saturation regardless of magnetic drive input into that point space.

To get to the point quickly and correct me if I am wrong,  would it be safer to conclude that :
** "a solid core flux density is not limited by the saturation level of the material, rather by its property of an initial rapid increase in flux density up to the point of material saturation and thereafter the core flux density follows the same gradient as a regular air medium" **

With other words, "a core provides a "step stone" to the flux increase but will revert to a air-core after saturation".

Regards, Red

The last part of your statement is correct:  A fully saturated ferromagnetic core incrementally behaves like an air core.

1. Magnetic flux increases incrementally by H_delta*mu_r*mu₀.  Take an air core and apply increasing current and B goes up with H.
2. mu_r is always >= 1.0.  Air is insignificantly greater than 1.0.
3. A ferromagnetic core can have an unbiased mu_r upwards of 10,000 or even more depending on the material.  Common power ferrites are around 2000.  Gapped cores and powdered cores have values that are much lower such as around 50.
3. A ferromagnetic core is said to saturate when mu_r falls from an initial value >> 1.0 towards 1.0.
4. In the limit, a saturated core exhibits a mu_r of 1.0.

There are materials that have very "soft" saturation curves, and others that have very "square" saturation curves.  The latter are useful for making magnetic amplifier "switches". 

[Red_Sunset]

The last part of your statement is correct:  A fully saturated ferromagnetic core incrementally behaves like an air core.
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Mark,
Thanks, understood.   
I was from the belief that induction stops absolutely at full saturation, it still does but not so absolutely any longer as it appears.
Red