Permanent magnet motor

[MarkE]

Interesting page but what they show is with current flowing to test the anomalies at the imperfections in the weld.

What I'm saying is that without the current flowing, the field attracts into the core and becomes locked in it's own reinforcing loop.

If you connect several diametrically magnetized cylinders into a ring, they suddenly become very non-magnetic even though nothing has changed within the magnet and it is still fully magnetized, the field remains in the core.

When the loop is broken the field returns as expected. So even if one did achieve a circular field in a cylinder, you would never know because it would loop only inside the core.

That's why current flow generates a special case where the field is excluded from the core or is pushed outside of it.

The remnant magnetization retains the same orientation as when the field is applied.  The coercivity of the material and the strength of the applied field determines the strength of the residual field.  If you want to assert the idea that the field shape changes rather than the field strength changing, I think you need to either find experiments where that has been shown, or perform experiments that show that idea is correct.  A simple test with iron filings surrounding a washer should be adequate.  You could even run the test (this has been done many times) with just iron filings on a sheet of paper or plastic with a wire running through the center. 

The citation establishes that the orientation you seek is commonly obtained and exploited.

[lumen]

The remnant magnetization retains the same orientation as when the field is applied.  The coercivity of the material and the strength of the applied field determines the strength of the residual field.  If you want to assert the idea that the field shape changes rather than the field strength changing, I think you need to either find experiments where that has been shown, or perform experiments that show that idea is correct.  A simple test with iron filings surrounding a washer should be adequate.  You could even run the test (this has been done many times) with just iron filings on a sheet of paper or plastic with a wire running through the center. 

The citation establishes that the orientation you seek is commonly obtained and exploited.

I might do a few additional tests because I found a piece of a Sony magnascale core and that rod takes on a field very easy.

You are however skipping the fact that the field orientation is not actually changing. In a horseshoe magnet, the field orientation does not change when a keeper is placed across the ends but yet the external field is gone.

Forming the ring of diametric cylinder magnets did not change the field orientation but still the external field is gone.

The logical prediction is that a cylinder with a circular field will have no external field because it will be retained inside the core, just like all other magnets forming a circular field.

The citation is for the detection of welding flaws and is simply showing the field with current flowing and how the flaw will show up with a distorted field if there is a pocket or crack in the weld and this is understandable. It's not indicating the field will continue to extend off the surface after the current stops flowing.

If such a magnet could be made then it would be very easy to build a magnet motor simply by placing it in another magnets field correctly.
I would like this to be real and work as dreamed, but that does not make it true.

[MarkE]

I might do a few additional tests because I found a piece of a Sony magnascale core and that rod takes on a field very easy.

You are however skipping the fact that the field orientation is not actually changing. In a horseshoe magnet, the field orientation does not change when a keeper is placed across the ends but yet the external field is gone.

Forming the ring of diametric cylinder magnets did not change the field orientation but still the external field is gone.

Apples and oranges.  The keeper is a highly permeable block that changes the field concentration.  It dramatically changes the magnetic path length.   Energizing or deenergizing a magnet does not change the magnetic path.  It changes the magnetic excitation.

The logical prediction is that a cylinder with a circular field will have no external field because it will be retained inside the core, just like all other magnets forming a circular field.

There is a world of difference between zero and some.  The more permeable the material the less the leakage.  But there is always leakage.  If you go get an iron pipe and energize a wire running through it, yes the leakage will be low, but it will still be there.  You have been wondering if you can get a PM to produce the same field pattern as a copper wire.  The answer is yes.  The material having a higher permeability than copper means that the model is of a powered copper wire inside a core of that permeability.

The citation is for the detection of welding flaws and is simply showing the field with current flowing and how the flaw will show up with a distorted field if there is a pocket or crack in the weld and this is understandable. It's not indicating the field will continue to extend off the surface after the current stops flowing.

Yes, and so what?  The first requirement is that you can get the same field shape.  The second is retaining the shape.  If your objection is that a field will concentrate in highly permeable material, that has nothing to do with being able to magnetize in a circular pattern or not per se.  Since you would like most of the field to remain outside the core, then that is a matter of materials choice.  You could for example sinter a core of powdered ferrite magnet or ceramic magnet material so as to greatly reduce the permeability, and thereby greatly increase the proportion of the field that extends beyond the core circumference.

If such a magnet could be made then it would be very easy to build a magnet motor simply by placing it in another magnets field correctly.
I would like this to be real and work as dreamed, but that does not make it true.

You are going to need to explain why you think that would be so.  I don't see where such a conclusion follows at all. 

A motor operates by repeatedly changing the location of the potential energy minimum.  Moving the PE minimum location when the system is at any location other than the new minimum takes work.  Some of that work, and in a well-designed motor almost all of that work, conveys to the motor mechanical output.

[ayeaye]

Lumen, i believe you. It seems that there is no way with permanent magnet motors, or well, any magnet motors.

There seems to be overunity like in my experiment https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 when the magnets are some distance apart, then some field lines going from pole to pole are still outside the magnets. But this overunity is not enough to overcome friction. Maybe it is possible to achieve continuous rotation, like with magnet bearings, but this is not important theoretically, as it can be shown that there is overunity more easily. And it has no importance whatsoever practically, as the propulsion is so small that it can barely make it rotate. Maybe an effective show to these who don't believe, but i don't know how much the people who don't understand a simple experiment with disk and magnets, should be convinced.

I really made a conclusion that magnets are no way to go, after doing my experiment above. I concluded that the overunity that can be achieved with magnets, is too small for any power generation. And i achieved the theoretical goal, in finding that there is overunity, so i saw no reason to go ahead. So i switched to experiments with a coil and induction http://overunity.com/14925/negative-discharge-effect/#.VdCK7NcuviY where i see there really is a perspective of some power generation. The experiments which i think really makes sense to do, but i cannot afford to do them any more. That is, i now have all the equipment, but i cannot afford the time spent to it.

I mean, what should be the advantages of these magnet motors? That they are simple. But now, when going very far, i would say these experiments are not more simple any more than the experiments with coil, and at that they appear to be much more expensive.

So good luck to all of you, i really appreciate the efforts to still try the last possibilities what concerns the magnet motors. But i also think that it is likely a waste of effort, with much too little benefit, an effort which likely would give much more results, if made in the more promising fields such as coils.

[guest1289]

The  magnetic-field  produced by an  electrical-wire( carrying DC current ) would also contain  an  'Electric-Field'. 
(  there's a  wikipedia page for  'Electric-Field'   )

An   electrical-current   in a wire would also produce   'An Electric-Field' ,    which is actually different from a magnetic-field (  even though they are unified in the special-theory-of-relativity ).   

   Think of how the end of one wire ( connected to a battery ) can detect the nearby other end of another wire ( connected to the same battery ),  so that it knows when to spark it's current  across to the end of the other wire,    or think of   lightning-clouds etc.

And,  I assume this  'Electric-Field'  could also be moving,  in a direction I'm not sure of.

The  'Electric-Field'  may  also interact  with a permanent-magnet  in some way,  SO THAT SHOULD BE TESTED,  A TEST TO SEE how an  PURE  'Electric-Field'  interacts with a  permanent-magnet .
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If you achieve  'properly magnetizing'  a  'donut-shaped-magnet( toroidal permanent-magnet)'  made of,   for example,   tiny-spheres-of-iron,  and fine sand,   then the results would be either of the possibilities below  :

    ( 1 ) -  The  individual   tiny-spheres-of-iron   will have those same   magneti-field  lines you see in the diagrams of  bar-magnets .
            (  But at this very small scale,  the   merge-points  may not be as visible to another magnet it is intended to interact with  )

    ( 2 ) -  If the  individual   tiny-spheres-of-iron  are  close enough to  each other ( on average, in the mixture )  and if that distance was was  'Just The Right Distance',   then some of their   magnetic-flow   would  flow to the  next   tiny-sphere-of-iron,  and go right around the donut-magnet ,     and,   the rest of their  magnetic-flow  would behave the same as the  diagrams of  bar-magnets  .

   So,  you could try and prove if   'Scenario ( 2 )'  is possible,   by finding if   'Just The Right Distance'  can be found in  a  ring  made  of  individual  'flattish-round-magnets'  spaced apart with just air or some material,   the benefit of this method is that you could constantly change the distances between the magnets,  with your hands.
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If I could,  I would get a  'donut-shaped-object'   made of  iron( I don't know what alloy ),    I would then somehow use another   'very-powerfull-permanet-magnet'   to induce  a   magnetic-flow   to go in  one direction  around  the   'donut-shaped-bject',    and then on the other side of the   'donut-shaped-bject'  I would make it interact  with  a third  magnet  to see if any  unexplained  movement  can be produced.

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