Gravity powered water generator

[bw100007]

  So far this topic has focused on how to get the water to the top.  The drawings attached have been of a top and bottom wheel with the buckets both upward and downward in a vertical configuration.  I would like to bring back my point of the advantage of leverage.  Lets say we have a typical 10 ' water wheel that has 12 spokes like the face of a clock.  We change the the rope and bucket so it follows a " D " shape with the straight back of the "D" running up through the center of the water wheel from 6 o'clock/ through the center of the hub to 12 o'clock.  If we start with a bucket at the bottom and another at the top and rotate the D wheel clockwise 90 degrees till the bottom bucket reaches the hub and the top bucket is at 3 o'clock. Swap the rope for bungee cord so the longer circumference of the wheel can stretch from the shorter distance of the straight back.

Each bucket has 20 lbs of weight but at the hub that bucket is basically sitting on the fulcrum of a lever with no advantage or cost of leverage.  It is the bucket that is sitting out on the 5' radius (lever) of the 10' diameter water wheel that is doing 5 times the work when the energy is extracted at the hub and not from the 20 lb bucket falling. Everyone has used a breaker bar correct? Would the added torque to the hub help in the lift?

Sorry I got off the topic of the lift but if we can also improve the performance of the drop it may be worth investigating. 

[bw100007]

Wanted to add that with all the buckets full - the buckets at 1-5 O'clock are all adding some amount of torque/ Leverage to the hub.

[Brutus]

bw100007:   I had the same thought  as you at the start of this discussion.  On page one smOKy2 addressed this issue in reply 2, 4, and 6.  Instead of repeating it here just go there and read it.  I also thought that stretching/elongating the buckets out like you suggest was a way to go.  More buckets out farther the more torque.  Not sure I fully grasped the reasoning but  I think he was saying gravity was the same for the amount of water used.  No matter how far you go out it still takes the same energy to get the water back up.  Minus losses.  Maybe the members can explain it to you better. 

I saw a demonstration of a model  on a u-tube video that when it came to the point of rotating each weight over to the downward side it basically slung an elongated arm with the weight attached out to throw a torque/thrust factor into the rotation and then receded back again at the bottom so one side was always farther out.  This seemed to cause the perpetual motion/rotation of the assembly  By giving the assembly an extra weight thrust on one side.  That was why I thought your concept was the way to go. 

I think, as I have modified the assembly at this point, To stretch the assembly out would only give me more buckets full of air and so more torque.  But the same could be done just by adding more buckets to a straight up, vertical conveyor. I see no gain in the stretch except to maybe shorten the distance up.  I could use a shorter tank  and thus giving me less pressure to over come with the air pump.  Actually, might not a bad idea.  But smOKy2's words are coming back to haunt me.  He said it would only travel farther and take more time and losses.    But in this instance it may fairly work for the pressure easement.   I think your still thinking of my original idea.

I believe the assembly, as constructed/imagined now, with the collapseable  air tanks and the air filled plugs should be self generating/operating.  Now I have to build it to prove it.  But I am wondering if it would be over kill to use this assembly as an enhancer to my original system.  That would give me that extra that every one says I need to make it work.   But one thing at a time. 

As a note;  I am picturing a replacement of the bucket with a soft plastic bag that is hinged, or not, on the bottom and so as the water drains at the top of the water level, the bag flaps closed from the water dragging over it on the way down.  and so it has very little foot print.  When it gets down to the air impute nozzle it will open from the force of the air drawing it open.  That way there is no need for  the displacement of the water with air factor involved with the bucket/bag.  The bag opening will have a little plastic piece mounted across  the lip and bent/concave slightly so it will have a small opening to allow the air to gain entrance and fill more easily.  It would have to be mounted top and bottom to the chain guide with appropriate hardware for stability. 

The air assembly plugs could be as simple as coated stirafoam or a plastic donut.  Will look into that further.  Something that will give the most lift and come as close as possible to the diameter of the pipe for air pull without causing a dragging effect on the sides any more than necessary.  Maybe a leather flap on the plug would suffice. 

[bw100007]

I have never seen a water wheel that has the buckets in a vertical configuration.  This link may help you in determining your bucket size and possible power once you bring the water to the top or the head height and ft per second flow.  You have to look at the power at the hub. 


There are many sites that discuss this.  Once you have X amount of water flowing at an X amount of speed from a x height you can calculate the power you can generate on the way down.  There are also many hydro turbines on the market



http://www.backwoodshome.com/design-calculations-for-overshot-waterwheels/

[Brutus]

O.K.    I finished the schematic mock up of my second try at the water generator.  It is drawn as to the way it will operate, not as to the materials.  I discussed that in the last post.  But it is basically the same as the original idea just reversed to incorporate the impute from all those who helped in this discussion.  I am still trying to do the math which I was never a good student.  I am using a 9 foot deep tank so I can use 14 buckets.  I can only keep 6 filled at a time for lifting to seven feet.   If I use a wide, short canvas bag/tote  for a bucket I can get around 1 to 2 gallons of air in each.  If I get the same lift weight as water weight I think I should get approximately 48 to 96 lbs of thrust.  I am trying for a rotation speed of at least 3 rotations a minute.  (Don't have a clue as to what it will actually do).  And, I haven't got a clue at this point as to what size generator this set up will turn.   I am using a three inch diameter pipe for the air pulley system.  So I also need to figure out the needed flow rate of air to fill the buckets.  This will be done with a chain driven gear ratio from the buckets to the air pulley system gear. So it will a consistant flow of air.   As shown in the schematic.  (Sprocket). 

I am hoping the air plugs rising in the water medium can offset the  air pulley system draw of energy so I can save some of the energy gained for the step up gears and generator needs.  I did a drawing of the first concept and this last idea put together as a companion to each other but I think it is over kill for now.  I need to see if this one works first. 

I think I can use less step up gears than are in the drawing by about four or five gears. 

bw100007:   I like this elongated conveyor style over a round wheel because a round wheel dumps its water way to soon.  My way retains the air for approx.
6/7ths of its cycling time.  (On the Filled side).

As in the first schematic I don't show the framing holding everything in place.  That would get to hard to see the concept art at this stag.    As for the electrical, One just needs to google it.  Most solar or electrical places can tell what you need to wire up the generator.