Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)

[gotoluc]

Yep MOT secondary Luc. I'm having better results now with a smaller cap. Thank Brad & Gyula. I have a condition called dickheadedness which manifests when I build circuits hence my DMM setting Gyula

In that case you don't have a replication of woopy's setup or what I've been recommending. Your motor coil should be the MOT's primary and send its flyback to the MOT secondary as the assist coil.  Doing it the way you have it will have next to no effect to the assist coil as the high resistance of a MOT secondary as motor coil will give you a weak flyback.
What I've been saying is, start with low impedance (mot primary) and send it's flyback to a high impedance (mot secondary) to assist the motor.

All the best mate

Luc

[gotoluc]

@gotoluc

OK, thanks for the bucking explain. I see that you consider this as a bucking effect and also understand that there is no relation between this and the standard bucking coils that are generally wound on a same core. Great.

Coils are wound on a core so you have the core layer that starts the winding and the outer layer that ends the winding.

A) The "pulse side" is the side of your parallel primaries that gets the make break, what ever it is - positive or negative of a source, applied to the coil at the core or outer layer.
B) The "always connected side" is the side of your parallel primaries that is always connected to source - positive or negative, applied to the coil at the core or outer layer.

So what I am trying to explain is that you add a third MOT primary in series to the two in parallel on the always connected side. This third one is just there sitting on the table and does not have to be mounted in any way on your wheel. Depending on which side is pulsed, these are the two possible ways;

                                           ====Primary 1====
----  pulsed on positive ---F--                                 ====Primary 3==== ----- constant negative------
                                           ====Primary 2====
or,

                                            ====Primary 1====
----  pulsed on negative --F---                                 ====Primary 3==== ----- constant positive------
                                            ====Primary 2====

OK, so where are you connecting your flyback diode? Using the above scheme, the flyback diode should come off the line where you see the letter F, that is between the pulse and the two parallel primaries.

So here are two questions for you guys about flyback.

1) If you run an electric motor or transformer with AC, A) is there flyback, or, B) is flyback strictly present after a DC pulse only?
2) If #1 is A or B or both, why?

wattsup

I'll give it a test at some point and let you know. You should see the result in about a week, if I forget please remind me.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

[wattsup]

I agree but it already shows it to be a promising design idea.

Point two identical speakers, coils or magnets and the will be neutral point no matter the strength of the magnetic field or sound level. Obviously it gets more interesting as the strength goes up but it's all the same effect.
Back in 2009 Gyula had suggested to me to consider building a all repelling motor using two identical transformers. I considered it but after this test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAYsAN5QPnA  I thought it may not have much torque so I never built it.
But using my most recent idea of a I core rotor in between the bucking transformers it turns it back to attraction force as long as you don't over saturate the I core rotor. It's kind of brilliant if I may say so ... also, there is an increase in inductance (double) from the time the power is turned on to the time it's turned off:  Inductance is 1.05mH no I core, 1.18mH with I core at switch on position, 2.38mH with I core at switch off position and 4.85mH with full core in position. So if a gain of inductance can help the flyback to have more kick (to be proven), then this design will help with that also.
Anyways, the correct I core rotor saturation level will be important. The I core thickness may need to be twice the thickness then the ones I'm using to allow the full MOT's flux potential but for now it will be good enough for proof of concept.
Hope this helps you and others better understand where I'm going with this. Also, don't forget, the primary coil flyback will be going to the high impedance assist coils to further boost the torque of this non CEMF reluctance motor.
Luc

@gotoluc

If your 2009 video was redone today, the first thing I would have wanted to see is while the coils are energized in series as you have them, show that each one can lift up a separate piece of laminate. That is the first thing, are both coils working because I am sure the second coil in series would not have picked up anything so it always remained a piece of metal. That's why in your repulsion mode it was not repulsing because one coil had a polarity while the other was just metal sticking to a polarity. Even at first when you had it in attraction mode, I am sure one coil was attracting the others metal but not the others polarity because series coils cannot be equal. Which also confirms that metal to polarity can only work under attraction, so great again. You can pull in and release but never repulse. I guess if you added some magnet on the trailing side of the wheel plates and rigged a second pulse as the plate leaves the coils confines, it could also work under repulsion as a secondary motivation.

wattsup

[gyulasun]

Hi wattsup,

My "2 cents" answers  on your questions. I repeat here your questions:

"1) If you run an electric motor or transformer with AC, A) is there flyback, or, B) is flyback strictly present after a DC pulse only?
2) If #1 is A or B or both, why?"

Answers:
1) I do not think there is flyback with AC input so my aswer is B

2) only the B because with a normal (50 or 60 Hz or whatever frequency) sinusoidal input voltage there is no interruption of the input current (zero crossing yes but it is not sudden).  Flyback pulse is strictly associated with a switch-off event under which no input current is drawn from the the input source which normally provides the input current during the ON times.  Again, the zero crossing event is not equivalent at all with a switch-off event by a dedicated switch.

Regarding your suggestion on using a 3rd primary MOT coil in series with the paralleled ones:  the use of this coil increases the overall impedance of the whole setup and as such you have to increase a little the input voltage to compensate for the reduced input current what this increased impedance causes. It is okay that you would receive flyback energy from the 3rd coil too, question is would this give more juice than what the increased input cost?  needs testing.

You wrote earlier that the 10 V or so input voltage level is rather low with respect to the mains 110-120 V these MOT primary coils were designed for originally. Here comes again that Luc drives these coils with pulsed DC and not AC, notice the pulsed DC involves already several Amper peak currents when the voltage level is at the 10 V area, while normal AC drive at 110-120 V input would result only in some hundred mA maximum or less input current levels (assuming no load condition).

One more thing: these "transformers" have open magnetic cores, rendering the original primary coil inductances much less than a closed core insures, and add to this the bucking magnetic coupling which further reduces the resulting inductance. The I core entering the gap between the two open cores increases this lowered coil inductance as we learnt from Luc inductance measurements, this is good.

Gyula

[Jimboot]

In that case you don't have a replication of woopy's setup or what I've been recommending. Your motor coil should be the MOT's primary and send its flyback to the MOT secondary as the assist coil.  Doing it the way you have it will have next to no effect to the assist coil as the high resistance of a MOT secondary as motor coil will give you a weak flyback.
What I've been saying is, start with low impedance (mot primary) and send it's flyback to a high impedance (mot secondary) to assist the motor.

All the best mate

Luc

Yeah thanks I have been playing with both. I think I've got the right setup now so I'll switch back to the primary. Finally stopped the plasma in the switches with the right cap.