Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)

[synchro1]

Laurent,

Your analysis is basically correct and I will "fill in some of the blanks" for you.   For starters, this statement, "This energy is dissipated for a small part in  heat due to the impedance of the coil and for the main part in building a magnetic field." should read as, "This energy is dissipated for a small part in heat due to the resistance of the coil and for the main part in building a magnetic field."

The impedance of the coil is associated with its inductance and stores energy, it does not dissipate energy and turn it into heat like a resistance.  So "impedance" and "resistance," although somewhat related because they are both associated with the blocking of the flow of current, in fact they are separate and distinct terms that should not be interchanged with each other.

You are essentially correct.  The electrical input energy goes to three places:  1) heat energy, 2) kinetic energy of the rotor, and 3) the BEMF pulse energy.

The magnetic field is not at it's max strength at the end of the pulse.  If the drive coil gives a big kinetic energy push to the rotor, then at the end of the constant-voltage energizing pulse from the reed switch there will be less current flowing through the coil.   In other words, without the rotor in place, then there will be more current flowing through the drive coil at the end of the constant-voltage energizing pulse from the reed switch.

You actually see this effect in your own clip, and I made reference to it in the form of a question but nobody responded.  Please review your clip and see if you can find any evidence for this effect.

As indicated above, the input energy is not totally dissipated at the end of the constant-voltage energizing pulse from the reed switch.  Some of the input energy remains at the end of the pulse on the rotor and it becomes the flyback pulse.

It goes full circle to what I said before:  How much energy is in the main drive pulse on the rotor from the drive coil?  How much energy is in the flyback pulse?  How do I measure and compare the two?

@Milehigh,

This is a quote from you from above:

"Some of the input energy remains at the end of the pulse on the rotor and it becomes the flyback pulse".

This is nonsense! Here's what happens:

The coil is energized by the electrical current. A magnetic field appears in the coil. The current is stopped and the magnetic field collapses. There is no left over current in the coil at this point!

The magnetic field collapse generates a new hi-voltage current. As the field collapses the field is moving in the opposite direction from the expanding field and generates a new current in the opposite direction as it passes inward across the windings. This is the flyback pulse! The faster the current is cut off to the coil the higher the flyback voltage. The magnet rotor can't have any effect on the power coil when the Reed switch is open.

Additionally, the magnetic field collapse generates a longitudinal scaler wave that has an "Impulse Magnetizing" effect. This power is infinite!

[minoly]

Glad you accept!

And I would not argue with you that low impedance coils are more efficient since they have next to no resistance but the tradeoff is they have next to no inductance.
I'm suggesting we use the ideal qualities of each (tuned) at the appropriate time to achieve a longer flux holding time to switch a PM flux gate with less input power then just a low or mid impedance coil.

So no need to build a motor, just a flux gate will do. As we know a flux gate will make a motor work and what we need is one that can work with less power input so we get the magnets to do most of the work.

This is what I'm ideally proposing and thought I would make it clear before you start your build.

Thanks for your participation and looking forward to your results

Luc

So what you are proposing is different than what Laurent is doing then? I'm new to this Fluxgate making a motor work can anyone explain this or point me in the right direction?

[tinman]

@Milehigh,

This is a quote from you from above:

"Some of the input energy remains at the end of the pulse on the rotor and it becomes the flyback pulse".

This is nonsense! Here's what happens:

The coil is energized by the electrical current. A magnetic field appears in the coil. The current is stopped and the magnetic field collapses. There's no left over current in the coil at this point!

This is the flyback pulse! The faster the current is cut off to the coil the higher the flyback voltage. The magnet rotor can't have any effect on the power coil when the Reed switch is open.

Additionally, the magnetic field collapse generates a longitudinal scaler wave that has an "Impulse Magnetizing" effect. This power is infinite!

The magnetic field collapse generates a new hi-voltage current. As the field collapses the field is moving in the opposite direction from the expanding field and generates a new current in the opposite directions as it passes inward across the windings.

No Synchro,the current dose not reverse direction-->only the voltage across the coil/inductor inverts. You apply a current in one direction to build the magnetic field around the inductor= current to form magnetic field. Then when the supply current is cut off,the magnetic field collapses,and creates a current flow=magnetic field changing in time to create current flow through the inductor. As the magnetic field around that inductor has not inverted (swapped polarities),then the current flow remains in the same direction.


Brad.

[tinman]

So what you are proposing is different than what Laurent is doing then? I'm new to this Fluxgate making a motor work can anyone explain this or point me in the right direction?

As the thread is entitled making a more efficient motor using the flyback,then that is what i will do.
The difference between the fluxgate and motor is that you have magnetic fields changing with time with regards to the inductor-this comes from the permanent magnets on the rotor.

I will simply use a generating coil with a variable resistive load to calculate motor torque and RPM. This way we can see how the motor performs under different loads.

[MoRo]

@Milehigh,

This is a quote from you from above:

"Some of the input energy remains at the end of the pulse on the rotor and it becomes the flyback pulse".

This is nonsense! Here's what happens:

The coil is energized by the electrical current. A magnetic field appears in the coil. The current is stopped and the magnetic field collapses. There's no left over current in the coil at this point! The magnetic filed collapse generates new hi-voltage current. As the field collapses the field is moving in the opposite direction from the expanding field and generates a new current in the opposite directions as it passes inward across the windings. The faster the current is cut off to the coil the higher the fly back voltage.

Absolutely correct.

Additionally, a soft iron core will amplify any field polarity produced by the windings. This is because the 'magnetic domains' align themselves to the external field and add to the sum total of the field.

Voltage is equivalent to pressure, it forces current through the wire. So the higher the voltage, the longer the wire can be through which one can 'move' current.
However, current is NOT movement of anything trough the conductor (wire) end-to-end. It should be thought of as an out-of-phase alignment of conductor atoms by way of force (voltage pressure). The direction of the phase changing pressure relative to the conductor will determine the polarity of the resultant magnetic field around the conductor.

During the time that the phase is changing, the magnetic field will appear to be 'moving'. During the collapse, the out-of-phase atomic condition is springing back into place. So, the field is moving in the opposite direction when collapsing, however the field itself will still be in the same polarity (between 0 and 9 as apposed to -9 and 0).

The amount of out-of-phase atomic alignment is determined by the voltage and length of wire giving rise to sum total resistance to the out-of-phase condition. Once the available voltage causes a maximized out-of-phase condition, the magnetic field no longer appears to be moving. The voltage must be maintained to maintain a certain out-of-phase degree. 

We are looking to get high voltage (pressure) to generate an out-of-phase atomic condition throughout a lengthy piece of wire with many turns rapped around the magnetic domains of a soft iron core, to create a strong usable magnetic field.

I say: increase the back-spike voltage (by way of a step-up transformer) so it works across a longer conductor (multiple electromagnets) (stators). 

MagnaMoRo