Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)

[tinman]

@gyulasun

As I had shown in my Half Coil Syndrome videos

Thanks for your comments and I will answer them in bold.

wattsup

Im not seeing this half coil syndrome wattsup ?.
In fact,everything seems to be as it should be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YFBs7DVqok

[gyulasun]

Hi MileHigh,

I have done a test with permanent magnets in repel configuration, the attached picture shows what kind of magnets I used. The single half crescent-shaped magnets are magnetised through their thickness, so these make up for two long "bar" magnets with the poles at the ends, I hope you accept this as if they were two long and thin bar magnets.

First I held the two "bar" magnets in my left and right hands and started to force them closer and closer together with facing repel poles and maintaining their lengthwise axis in exact alignment. I clearly felt an increasing repel force all the way till the facing surfaces actually touched each other.
These magnets are ALNICO types and I managed to fully force them together. I have some cylinder shaped Neodymium magnets but they are so strong I cannot force them fully together with facing repel poles in my hands, a gap of about 1.5-2mm remains between their facing surfaces. But as I force them closer and closer,  I do feel an increasing repel force as the gap reduces between them till I reach the 1.5-2mm gap I cannot defeat by my hands.

In the pictures I show the two Alnico "bar" magnets in repel, with the help from a family member. Top picture shows what distance they let themselves place in repel, it was about 29-30mm on the table (of course this is influenced by friction). The middle and bottom pictures show as we forced the "bar" magnets closer and closer while sensing the repel force by our fingers continuously. Any time we stopped forcing them together and let the bars toss each other out to the left and right, they always snapped backwards immediately. There was no any distance my helper or I found where the repel force would have been weaker, nor we found a position any close to each other where we could feel a no repulsion, no attraction situation.

The above text is my answer to this part of your post:

Let's do a thought experiment that anybody can replicate in real life.  You have two long and thin bar magnets, where one is slightly stronger than the other.

You set up the magnets like this:   [S============N]        [N=============S]

As the two magnets are brought together you feel increasing repulsion.  Then at a certain close distance from each other you feel nothing, no repulsion or attraction.  That is where the opposing north fields have cancelled each other out.  Then as you bring the two magnets closer together they are lightly attracted and the two north ends stick together.  This is where the stronger magnet has dominated over the weaker magnet and there is a small net magnetic field and a small attraction.

On the web there are such pieces of information like this:
"The point X is called a neutral point. The forces due to both magnets cancel each other, i.e. there is no net force, at X."

See the next attachment with the drawing belonging to that text, from this link:
http://www.animatedscience.co.uk/ks5_physics/general/Electricity%20&%20Magnetism/Magnetic%20Fields.htm

Well, I can accept that in a tiny volume like some pin-heads would represent in the middle area between the facing repel magnets, the flux lines leaving both magnets are so much diverted sideways by the mutual repulsion that there would remain only a tiny neutral point or volume as shown. However, this must be so small force cancellation that cannot affect much the resulting main repel force which comes about from flux lines leaving the magnets elsewhwere on the facing areas. At least we have not sensed any such reducement, let alone small attraction force.

I can also accept that in case the two repel magnets are different in strength like in the case of a ferrite magnet and a rare earth magnet interaction, here the stronger magnet may change the weaker magnet's original properties by remagnetizing it (changes the original poles for instance) temporarily or for a longer time.
However this may not happen with two ceramic magnets, for instance which may have but a small difference in strength.

I did not mean to consider these latter situations, especially not in the case of two repelling electromagnets which was the initial situation when I asked what you had meant by magnetic field cancellation when the coils had only air between them.

Let me copy some characteristics of magnetic lines of force from this link http://www.tpub.com/neets/book1/chapter1/1i.htm

1. Magnetic lines of force are continuous and will always form closed loops.
2. Magnetic lines of force will never cross one another.
3. Parallel magnetic lines of force traveling in the same direction repel one another. Parallel magnetic lines of force traveling in opposite directions tend to unite with each other and form into single lines traveling in a direction determined by the magnetic poles creating the lines of force.
4. Magnetic lines of force tend to shorten themselves. Therefore, the magnetic lines of force existing between two unlike poles cause the poles to be pulled together.
5. Magnetic lines of force pass through all materials, both magnetic and nonmagnetic.
6. Magnetic lines of force always enter or leave a magnetic material at right angles to the surface.

Can you agree with these points?

Gyula

PS  Next time I will try to answer some of your other statements / opinions made in your previous two posts.

[MileHigh]

Hi MileHigh,

I have done a test with permanent magnets in repel configuration, the attached picture shows what kind of magnets I used. The single half crescent-shaped magnets are magnetised through their thickness, so these make up for two long "bar" magnets with the poles at the ends, I hope you accept this as if they were two long and thin bar magnets.

First I held the two "bar" magnets in my left and right hands and started to force them closer and closer together with facing repel poles and maintaining their lengthwise axis in exact alignment. I clearly felt an increasing repel force all the way till the facing surfaces actually touched each other.
These magnets are ALNICO types and I managed to fully force them together. I have some cylinder shaped Neodymium magnets but they are so strong I cannot force them fully together with facing repel poles in my hands, a gap of about 1.5-2mm remains between their facing surfaces. But as I force them closer and closer,  I do feel an increasing repel force as the gap reduces between them till I reach the 1.5-2mm gap I cannot defeat by my hands.

In the pictures I show the two Alnico "bar" magnets in repel, with the help from a family member. Top picture shows what distance they let themselves place in repel, it was about 29-30mm on the table (of course this is influenced by friction). The middle and bottom pictures show as we forced the "bar" magnets closer and closer while sensing the repel force by our fingers continuously. Any time we stopped forcing them together and let the bars toss each other out to the left and right, they always snapped backwards immediately. There was no any distance my helper or I found where the repel force would have been weaker, nor we found a position any close to each other where we could feel a no repulsion, no attraction situation.

Gyula,

Okay, I can see your test apparently refutes my claim, which made me realize that I have to further fine tune my statements and description.  For starters, the phenomenon that I described is something that I have observed myself several times in the past.  It was so long ago and I was just casually playing with magnets that I can't remember any specifics.

The reason I suggested long and thin bar-type magnets was to reduce the gradient in the magnetic field strength at the end of each magnet.  That way presumably you have more opportunity for the phenomenon I described to take place.

I believe what I missed in my description is that the magnets can't be such that the ferrite or other material is fully saturated.  There has to be some remaining headroom for supporting the flow of increased magnetic flux.  Without that property I don't think it will work.  So I am going to assume that your "bar" magnets made with the Alnico material are nearly or are fully saturated.  So that means from the perspective of the opposing magnet, there is no conduit for magnetic flux, and the relative permeability of the material is close to one.

So, if you can imagine the two approaching bar magnets, north approaching north, each magnet "sees" an approaching opposite pole (repulsion) and it "sees" an approaching conduit for magnetic flux (attraction).  When the magnets cross the "zero line" threshold, the stronger magnet nullifies the magnetic field of the weaker magnet, and the remaining net magnetic field and potential for increasing flux will cause attraction between the two magnets.  The net magnetic field gradient is working "for attraction" in this case as more net flux continues to flow between the two magnets as they get closer together.

This is all partially shown in Luc's clip:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAYsAN5QPnA

Nothing happens when he energizes the two core assemblies that are facing each other in repulsion mode.  If you assume the same modified transformers were used, you have the same number of turns and they are connected in series for the same number of ampere-turns.  Both cores are only partially magnetized so they both have extra headroom for magnetic flux to flow through them in the "opposite" direction.

The net result of all of this is near-perfect flux cancellation and essentially no net magnetic field, so the force between the two transformer cores is near zero.  There is a gradient, but with no net magnetic field when the two cores are so close together, that you can do nothing with it.  If the experiment was done so that you had 10% more current flowing in one of the modified transformers, then the gradient has something to work with, and then the two transformer cores would be attracted to each other, as per my suggested experiment.

Likewise, if in the clip Luc had moved the two transformer cores about one centimeter away from each other,  then you would have had less flux flowing into the "opposite" core because of the big air gap.  At the same time, the repulsive magnetic field gradient would have taken over and the two transformer cores would have pushed away from each other from the now-manifesting magnetic repulsion.

So, if you agree with this, Luc's clip is a partial demonstration of the phenomenon that I am referring to.

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

1. Magnetic lines of force are continuous and will always form closed loops.
2. Magnetic lines of force will never cross one another.
3. Parallel magnetic lines of force traveling in the same direction repel one another. Parallel magnetic lines of force traveling in opposite directions tend to unite with each other and form into single lines traveling in a direction determined by the magnetic poles creating the lines of force.
4. Magnetic lines of force tend to shorten themselves. Therefore, the magnetic lines of force existing between two unlike poles cause the poles to be pulled together.
5. Magnetic lines of force pass through all materials, both magnetic and nonmagnetic.
6. Magnetic lines of force always enter or leave a magnetic material at right angles to the surface.

Can you agree with these points?

Gyula

#6 is wrong.  It looks like the author is mixed up and was actually thinking about static electric field lines leaving a conductive surface.  In that case the electric field lines have to be at right angles to the surface.

[Jimboot]

I moved away from the reeds as I ran out of them Back using my hall effect circuit (designed by woopy circa 2006) Anyway interesting effects. I'll hook the scope up tonight. Also I could not replicate in this vid but when I had the cap hooked up in parallel with the drive coil and I was trying to hook up a load I accidentally created a spark gap and the light shone very brightly. I'll try to replicate that tomorrow night with the scope attached. In the meantime I thought you may find this interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeJkyMNeTzE (edit changed URL)