Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.

[tinman]

No, your example is not workable.  In a universal motor by design you are expending electrical overhead to create the magnetic fields associated with the stator.  A very simplified model is a resistive power burn (that does not output mechanical work) to sustain the "static" stator magnetic fields and then more power to go to the rotor windings to do the actual mechanical output work.  I suppose in reality both the stator fields and the rotor fields in repulsion acting against each other do the work - and all of that work is coming from the input electrical power.  After all, they are just electromagnets in repulsion.



You need to find another setup for explaining how magnets are a source of energy.  For example, start off with a DC motor that has permanent magnets for the stator.  Where is the magnetic power in watts or magnetic energy in joules in that case?  I am sure that you have done many projects where you are claiming permanent magnets are doing work, like the one you are working on right now.  And "work" means joules of energy, in whatever form they manifest themselves.  You are alleging that joules of energy are in the form of "magnetic energy" coming from the magnets themselves.  Please cite an example with a full explanation like I requested in my previous posting.  Again, I am not asking for a measurement procedure, I am asking you for an explanation of a device that includes a "magnetic energy" component.

The same question goes out to all of the Timnan supporters that believe in "magnetic energy" - describe it working in a system.  Walk the walk.

MileHigh

Yes, the input power will go down if you put in permanent magnets for the stator, but that is meaningless.  You are effectively saying, "I am burning resistive waste heat power to sustain my stator field, and I want to replace them with permanent magnets."  That power saving doesn't count towards anything and does not in any way represent "magnetic energy."

I disagree. What that dose tell us for sure,is that the permanent magnet will reduce waste heat and energy consumption within that motor,and the end result is an increase in efficiency. Now what was it that increased the efficiency of that motor?,and how did it increase the efficiency of that motor-->and the big one MH-->can you give,or do you have an example where the efficiency of that motor can be increased the same without the use of permanent magnets?.

How is the permanent magnet doing useful work?
Well,not only did it reduce the amount of input power,and maintained the same mechanical output power,it also reduced the waste heat of that motor-there is your useful work being done.

It would seem that the term !useful work! has grown into the belief that in order for useful work to be done,then an energy increase on the output must be seen. But this is just not true,as a reduction in energy input while maintaining the same energy output is also useful work being done.

Lets forget about the heat loss for a bit,and look at domain alignment in the core material. It takes work to align and maintain the alignment of the magnetic domains in that core material,but with the PM,it is already done.

This brings me to my first DUT,the one with the spinning rotor and alternating magnetic field.
First i will state that this is not yet backed up with further timing tests needed to confirm the below belief.
It is my belief that the work being done in this DUT by the permanent magnets is related to eddy currents and magnetic domain alignment. Without the rotor,we had  X amount in P/in,and Y amount of P/out. When the rotor was in play,the P/in went down, but the P/out remained the same. I believe that the permanent magnets on the rotor are aligning the magnetic domains within the core material before the transistor switches on. I also believe that eddy currents are the result of this domain alignment,and without the rotor in place,the supply battery is also delivering the power required to align these domains,and also the eddy currents that accompany the domain alignment. With the rotor in play,this domain alignment is done by the permanent magnets,and so the power to do this is no longer required by the source power--that being the supply battery.
We know that the magnetic field produced by the coil must be the same as the field of the magnet that just past the core of the coil,otherwise the rotor would stop. So we know that the domain alignment (or some of) has taken place within the core material of the coil before the current begins to flow in that coil. We also know that it takes energy(work must be done) to align the domains--there for we must also get that energy back when the transistor switches of,and the magnetic field collapses,whether in the way of heat or electrical energy. We must also take into consideration that the opposite field is now approaching the core of the coil,and this will switch the magnetic domains to be opposite to which they were during switch on time. Are we also getting this energy back when the domains once again switch ?.


Anyway,that is what i have for you so far MH.


Brad

[picowatt]

I disagree. What that dose tell us for sure,is that the permanent magnet will reduce waste heat and energy consumption within that motor,and the end result is an increase in efficiency.

Tinman,

Perhaps you should provide us with a clear definition of what you consider to be "useful work".

Would the small efficiency gained by replacing copper wire with silver wire in a motor demonstrate that the silver is doing "useful work"?

Does the use of house insulation, low rolling resistance tires, turbochargers, or even ball bearings fit within your definition of doing "useful work"?

Just wondering...

PW

[tinman]

Tinman,

Perhaps you should provide us with a clear definition of what you consider to be "useful work".

Would the small efficiency gained by replacing copper wire with silver wire in a motor demonstrate that the silver is doing "useful work"?

Does the use of house insulation, low rolling resistance tires, turbochargers, or even ball bearings fit within your definition of doing "useful work"?

Just wondering...

PW

None of the above mentioned fit PW.
Home insulation-simply reflects heat back up into the roof space--but the heat is still there.
low rolling resistance tires-still have resistance,and still produce waste heat.
Turbochargers-increase fuel usage as boost rises,which creates more waste heat.
Ball bearing's-even when new,still have friction,and will still produce waste heat.
Interesting to note,in regards to the bearings--the only bearing that has no friction or waste heat,is the permanent magnet bearing.

None of the above you mentioned removes the loss of waste heat altogether,where as replacing the stator coils with permanent magnets removes all the waste heat that was generated by the stator coils.

You have provided examples of improvements--but not elimination of waste heat
The permanent magnet provides elimination of waste heat in the case of the universal motor,and your above mentioned bearings. The magnets that replace the stator coils will remove all the waste heat those stator coils produced--your silver wire will not.


Brad

[picowatt]

None of the above mentioned fit PW.
Home insulation-simply reflects heat back up into the roof space--but the heat is still there.
low rolling resistance tires-still have resistance,and still produce waste heat.
Turbochargers-increase fuel usage as boost rises,which creates more waste heat.
Ball bearing's-even when new,still have friction,and will still produce waste heat.
Interesting to note,in regards to the bearings--the only bearing that has no friction or waste heat,is the permanent magnet bearing.

None of the above you mentioned removes the loss of waste heat altogether,where as replacing the stator coils with permanent magnets removes all the waste heat that was generated by the stator coils.

You have provided examples of improvements--but not elimination of waste heat
The permanent magnet provides elimination of waste heat in the case of the universal motor,and your above mentioned bearings. The magnets that replace the stator coils will remove all the waste heat those stator coils produced--your silver wire will not.


Brad

Tinman,

You seem to want to include elimination of a specific or particular portion of waste heat into your definition of "useful work".

House insulation, low rolling resistance tires, turbochargers, and ball bearings all eliminate or reduce a portion of waste heat and reduce energy consumption. 

Would replacing the stator windings with superconducting windings fit within your definition of "useful work"?

Did the "with rotor versus without rotor" tests demonstrate the elimination of all of the heat produced by something?

As I said, perhaps you should provide us with your definition of "useful work".

PW

[tinman]

Tinman,

You seem to want to include elimination of a specific or particular portion of waste heat into your definition of "useful work".

House insulation, low rolling resistance tires, turbochargers, and ball bearings all eliminate or reduce a portion of waste heat and reduce energy consumption. 

Would replacing the stator windings with superconducting windings fit within your definition of "useful work"?

Did the "with rotor versus without rotor" tests demonstrate the elimination of all of the heat produced by something?

As I said, perhaps you should provide us with your definition of "useful work".

PW

I have already provided my definition of useful work being done in my last reply to MH.
To totally remove (not reduce) a wasted energy from a system, and have that removal result in either the input energy remain , while the wanted output energy increases, or to have the wanted output energy remain the same while the input energy has decreased, then useful work had to be done in this waste elimination process.

As I stated before, you provided improvements-not a complete conversion.


Brad