Common batteries are free energy sources

[mondrasek]

Currently the load is only the relay solenoid (now an air coil) that is doing the battery switching.  The curent it receives needs to cycle polarity to push and pull the contact arm back and forth now since there is no spring mechanism in the relay anymore.  For example, I can stop the relay from oscillating and it will not self start since the switch fingers are not touching either contact side since there is no spring or other force to do so anymore.  I tap it to one side or the other to make the first battery circuit and it will cause the coil to energize and push or pull the arm to the opposite side to begin the oscillation and start it up.  The circuit currently is a closed loop with out an output except for the second coil wraps on the solenoid which I believe are a step down transformer coil to capture the bemf in the relay (when un-modified) that pulses an LED in series with a small resistor.  Unfortunately the voltage across this second winding is 1/10 that of the input.

I was thinking the way to have a useful output is to wind a new coil, one that is bifilar with equal numbers of wraps.  The second coil should be an isolated output that can go to a rectifier to return 9VDC, right?  Or will adding the rectifier simply as you mentioned isolate the relay solenoid from some output of the rectifier that can also be used to power another load?  I'm not familiar with rectifiers and will have to read up.  Do you have any suggestion for the best componet(s) for the rectifier?

M.

[mondrasek]

I thought I'd post a cleaner diagram.

I'm currently investigating the best cap for C1.  This cap is necessary to keep the charge and magnetic field on the solenoid while during mid switch where it would otherwise receive no current (break before make type relay).  So I am guessing a fast discharge, medium voltage, high capacitance?  Suggestions?

I now believe that the second coil in the Omron relay I have modified is just a coil tap.  So the wave form across this section should mirror that across the whole coil as I already witnessed (duh).

I'm still toying with the idea of adding caps across each set of contacts to suppress arcing and welcome your input on this subject.

I also wired in a 1:1 transformer in the bottom of the circuit where the battery pair's negative terminals are attached.  This is how I hope to decouple another load eventually.

[mscoffman]

mondrasek;

A couple of things. Your approach looks interesting.  Make sure the batteries are seeing the coil load equally.
Unbalanced batteries will run down the high drain side first and overunity will be hard to achieve. If "push
comes to shove" one could use a multi-pole manual switch to switch "source" and "charge" battery sets again.
See if you can come up with a way to fire single polarity pulse coil b-emf into both sets of batteries simultaneously
using diodes.

Just like a force can do no work unless there is movement. A coil doesn't have a b-emf if the expanding magnetic
field does work or runs into lenz metal. In a relay the magfield does work because it moving the contact pole plate.
Hence the oscilliscope trace shows no trace of coil b-emf pulse with the relay. So you may want to put a raw
open inductor in series with the relay coil through isolating diodes to generate b-emf pulses. Winding dual coils
on the relay will not help this situation. (In a SGS the magnets come around again on a wheel via mechanical
momentum)

Before that you will need to be able to use diodes to isolate parts of the circuit. Use a buzz-light (a flashlight
with clip leads) and put a diode in the circuit. Now flip the diode between leads. *That* is a diode. A silicon
power diode like the 1N4001 creates a .7voltage step because of the way it operates. This is OK for signals but
for power efficiency will lack. Use a Schotky power diode (out of computer switching supplies) with has a lower
threshold  or a Germanium power diode for .2volt step. A diode schematic symbol is an arrow with a band. Point
the current in the direction of the diode and band and it will flow. Point the current away from the band and the
diode will block current. The diode can do this almost perfectly in terms of resistance. Use power diodes for
power circuits not those little signal diodes that look like 1/4watt resistors.

That secondary winding on the relay coil needs to be unloaded. If the led lights at all - it is wasting energy
use a power drill to remove the led if you want!

You will have to establish how much overunity or how long an acceptable battery run down time is. Then begin
trying to put additional current load on the circuit. That secondary winding (or transformer) may end up coming
in handy for impedance/voltage adaptation. What is called "interstage isolation" in the business.

:S:MSCoffman

 

[mondrasek]

A couple of things. Your approach looks interesting.  Make sure the batteries are seeing the coil load equally.
Unbalanced batteries will run down the high drain side first and overunity will be hard to achieve. If "push
comes to shove" one could use a multi-pole manual switch to switch "source" and "charge" battery sets again.
See if you can come up with a way to fire single polarity pulse coil b-emf into both sets of batteries simultaneously
using diodes.

I only played around with the set up for 10 or 15 minutes last night.  Hottest day of the year again yesterday so my garage work area is well above 120F and I can't tollerate that for long.  I noticed that the wave form was not perfectly symetric as one side was started with batteries that were not fully charged.  So the lower voltage would cause a weaker magnetic field and that side would switch slower and be drained faster.  I could balance the wave form by rotating the relay so that gravity was helping the weaker side to switch faster.  I think I can use that idea to make a self balancing circuit if I invert the relay.  But I first need to replace my allegator clip counter weight with something more ridgid and adjustable for attaining different frequencies.  I hate to use super glue as I don't trust it to hold against high frequency vibration, but that might be all I can do on this small scale.  I was thinking to glue a thin steel bar to the switch plate arm in place of the allegator clip.  To that I could then add small neo's at different distances to adjust switching frequency.

Just like a force can do no work unless there is movement. A coil doesn't have a b-emf if the expanding magnetic
field does work or runs into lenz metal. In a relay the magfield does work because it moving the contact pole plate.
Hence the oscilliscope trace shows no trace of coil b-emf pulse with the relay. So you may want to put a raw
open inductor in series with the relay coil through isolating diodes to generate b-emf pulses. Winding dual coils
on the relay will not help this situation. (In a SGS the magnets come around again on a wheel via mechanical
momentum)

Thanks.  That explains the wave form and keeps me from wasting time with a bifilar solenoid coil.  I had dreaded the idea of trying to make that and adapt it to work with the existing relay contact arm anyway!

Before that you will need to be able to use diodes to isolate parts of the circuit. Use a buzz-light (a flashlight
with clip leads) and put a diode in the circuit. Now flip the diode between leads. *That* is a diode. A silicon
power diode like the 1N4001 creates a .7voltage step because of the way it operates. This is OK for signals but
for power efficiency will lack. Use a Schotky power diode (out of computer switching supplies) with has a lower
threshold  or a Germanium power diode for .2volt step. A diode schematic symbol is an arrow with a band. Point
the current in the direction of the diode and band and it will flow. Point the current away from the band and the
diode will block current. The diode can do this almost perfectly in terms of resistance. Use power diodes for
power circuits not those little signal diodes that look like 1/4watt resistors.

Sorry, I didn't follow the buzz-light bit.  I tried to research but the "Buzz Light Year" character clogs the search engines.  Could you eleborate?

Thanks also for the info on the different diodes.  I'm familiar with the usual voltage drops and had wondered about which type had the least.  I didn't know that switching times were so varied as well.  But I am having trouble figuring out how to distinguish signal and power diodes.  It appears to me that RS does not carry power diodes?  Where is a good source?

That secondary winding on the relay coil needs to be unloaded. If the led lights at all - it is wasting energy
use a power drill to remove the led if you want!

You will have to establish how much overunity or how long an acceptable battery run down time is. Then begin
trying to put additional current load on the circuit. That secondary winding (or transformer) may end up coming
in handy for impedance/voltage adaptation. What is called "interstage isolation" in the business.

I had broken the coil tap's led+resistor connection first thing, when I assumed it was to cancel bemf.

The 1:1 transformer I tried is for signal isolation in telephones and came from RS.  It is wound around a laminated core.  I am guessing I want a low impedence coil instead and so a bifilar air core would be better?

M.

[mondrasek]

@mscoffman,

I think I understand the buzz-light bit now.  You were just wanting me to see the voltage drop and one way current flow through a diode, right?

M.