MH's ideal coil and voltage question

[MileHigh]

[I will try one last time to try and show you what resonance is,and when something is resonating,and what oscillating at a natural resonant frequency is.
It dose not come much more simple that this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzFvhQgsS-Y

You are so utterly hapless and confused when it comes to this stuff sometimes Brad, it just blows my mind how you can't think for yourself and achieve a "normal" level of understanding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit

LC circuit

An LC circuit, also called a resonant circuit, tank circuit, or tuned circuit, is an electric circuit consisting of an inductor, represented by the letter L, and a capacitor, represented by the letter C, connected together. The circuit can act as an electrical resonator, an electrical analogue of a tuning fork, storing energy oscillating at the circuit's resonant frequency.

[MileHigh]

An ideal torque is an ideal energy source. An ideal torque will maintain it's chosen value,regardless of the opposition force placed upon this torque.

Gee it's hard with you MH.
Im sorry to say MH,but in engineering,torque is not only related to flywheels,and so your answer is very limited(like your self),where as mine covers the whole spectrum.
Nice try,but you missed the boat again.

And yet your question is based around such a device lol.
So it's much like asking--how fast could a flying pink pig go ?.

Your ideal voltage source !is! an ideal source of energy.
For a voltage to be placed across an inductor,and a current to flow through that inductor,requires a source of energy. Since your question only has two components,1-the inductor,and 2-the ideal voltage source,then the ideal voltage source must be providing the energy.
You never managed to provide an example of a voltage source that dose not contain energy -but no surprise there

It is funny to watch you try and squirm your way out of mistakes you know you have made lol.
You never like answering questions asked of you either-->like,when is an inductor resonating?,and when is it just ringing down at it's resonant frequency?.
I mean,we have all discussed this on many occasions,and TK has shown a coil ringing down,and a coil resonating many times. But you will not answer those two question's,as you know that means that your self resonating wine glass and bell theory will fall in a big heap.

Since I tried to give you the real definition of an ideal torque and you rejected it, then I will say your comments about torque are completely idiotic.  Not using the proper mechanical variables of torque and angular velocity for your "explanation" is completely idiotic.  Making reference to an "ideal energy source" is also completely idiotic.

Im sorry to say MH,but in engineering,torque is not only related to flywheels,and so your answer is very limited(like your self),where as mine covers the whole spectrum.

That's another completely idiotic statement because I use a flywheel as a convenient example, that's all, and I am expecting your brain to be able to process that and understand it.  Obviously, I was expecting too much from you.

And yet your question is based around such a device lol.

No, it is not based around an "ideal energy source."  That is a meaningless term and if you are going to talk about this stuff then you have to use the proper terminology whether you like it or not.  Failing to use the proper terminology and demonstrate a mastery over basic energy concepts makes you look like a fool.

Yes, there is no such thing as an "ideal energy source" and if you stated that in a physics or engineering class everybody would look at you like you were from Mars.  Failure to think one more time Brad.

In the realm of what we are discussing you have the following:

Ideal voltage source
Ideal current source
Ideal torque source
Ideal angular velocity source
Ideal force source
Ideal linear velocity source

That is the deck of cards laid out for you.  If in the future you continue to use the term "ideal energy source" you will look like a complete idiot.

You never managed to provide an example of a voltage source that dose not contain energy -but no surprise there

Failure to think again Brad.

You never like answering questions asked of you either-->like,when is an inductor resonating?,and when is it just ringing down at it's resonant frequency?.
I mean,we have all discussed this on many occasions,and TK has shown a coil ringing down,and a coil resonating many times. But you will not answer those two question's,as you know that means that your self resonating wine glass and bell theory will fall in a big heap.

I don't know what profound points or questions you have to make about an LC resonator.  NOT an "inductor resonating" Brad, you have to use the proper terminology whether you like it or not.

[MileHigh]

I asked you to describe a coil resonating,and one that is just ringing down-->what is the difference?.

Presumably you are talking about an ideal LC circuit vs. an LCR circuit that will ring down.  There is nothing special there.

You have not provided one example where an object will resonate by it's self,and your bell,and wine glass examples have been proven to be wrong.

An LCR circuit will resonate by itself.  So will a tuning fork, a bell, and a wine glass.

Here is your "big intellectual hurdle" that you must get over Brad to not stick out of the Electronics 001 class like a sore thumb:  "Resonance" has two meanings.  Now is that so hard to get into your head?  There is the same old "driven resonance" that you always refer to and are stuck to like some poor hapless fly on flypaper.

Here is the second definition put into some easy-to-understand sentences:

For starters, keep this in mind, "An LC circuit, also called a resonant circuit, tank circuit, or tuned circuit, is an electric circuit consisting of an inductor, represented by the letter L, and a capacitor, represented by the letter C, connected together. The circuit can act as an electrical resonator, an electrical analogue of a tuning fork, storing energy oscillating at the circuit's resonant frequency."

Now, here we go:

An LC circuit is a resonant circuit that acts as an electrical resonator that resonates at the resonant frequency and manifests the phenomenon of resonance.

A tuning fork is a resonant system that acts as a mechanical resonator that resonates at the resonant frequency and manifests the phenomenon of resonance.

A wine glass is a resonant system that acts as a mechanical resonator that resonates at the resonant frequency and manifests the phenomenon of resonance.

A bell is a resonant system that acts as a mechanical resonator that resonates at the resonant frequency and manifests the phenomenon of resonance.

Now, does that register in your brain or are you just going to stick to the single definition of resonance that you understand and completely ignore the second definition of resonance that is actually the more basic and fundamental definition of what resonance really is?

Which one is it going to be?

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

Brad:

And since we have been talking about this stuff for a while where we use analogies, you should know that there are two separate systems for analogies.  There is the "force-current" analogy and the "force-voltage" analogy.

When I talk about using the analogy of the flywheel and say that putting 4 volts across the 5 Henry inductor is like putting torque on a flywheel, I am using the force-voltage analogy.  My shopping cart example was also using the force-voltage analogy.

So, there are two "analogy systems" and here is a very informative link about the two systems:

http://lpsa.swarthmore.edu/Analogs/ElectricalMechanicalAnalogs.html

That's just the way it is and people can choose whichever analogy system they want to use to discuss a given example.  If you are a real keener, you will be able to automatically pick up which system the person you are conversing with is using.

MileHigh

[tinman]

 author=webby1 link=topic=16589.msg485784#msg485784 date=1465101608]
 

Is the air an external force?

The air is an impedance acting upon the oscillations of the bell.

Without the air would it ring down at the same rate as with the air?

No,it would take longer for the bell to ring down,as one of the impedance's acting upon the bell has been removed.

Is the air pressure waves you hear at the same frequency as the bell?Repeat the above questions.

Yes they are.

So the air responding to the oscillations of the bell is reducing the amplitude of those oscillations by converting the amplitude of those oscillations into sound waves,, aka pressure waves.

That is correct.

So the external stimuli is a negative value.

It is not a stimuli,it is an impedance.

The system will build up to the maximum that the outside stimuli can supply,, it stores that outside input within the amplitude of the oscillation.

That is correct--that is resonance.
But with the bell,the oscillations are decreasing in amplitude,they are not building up to a maximum,and there for,there is no resonating system.

Stimuli--a thing that arouses activity or energy in someone or something.
Impedance--An analogous measure of resistance to an alternating effect, as the resistance to vibration of the medium in sound transmission.

Can you get a coil\cap oscillating and use a zener diode to clip the peaks that are above the input voltage?  can you see the pattern on a scope?  what will the frequency of those output pulses be,, can you drop the zener to one that is lower than the input voltage,, running through a resistor,, and watch the amplitude of the coil\cap go down?

The coil and cap are a resonant system. The coil or cap will not resonate by them self.
A tank circuit will not become resonant,unless an outside force is applied to the tank system. That outside force must be maintained in order for resonance to continue. Once the outside force is removed,then the tank system will ring down to a stop.


Brad