MH's ideal coil and voltage question

[tinman]

What's more interesting than the philosophical issue whether a resonance can exist without an unbalance of energy in the resonating/resonant system, is why the Mythbusters could not break the wine glass with a single tone, but could do it with two tones?

Thats Mythbusters for you.
They dont often get things right.
Did you ever see there attempt at a Bedini pulse motor lol--and this was there electronics guru that tried to build one


Brad

[tinman]

Brad:



But the saddest thing of all, is that you simply couldn't admit that the way the exhaust system works to optimize the performance of the engine is a timing-based function and not a resonance-based function.  It is absolutely clear to me that this is the case and I am quite certain that the majority of readers would agree.  Instead of just admitting to it like a man, you shrink away from it and try to hide behind fake lol's and smiley faces.  And I have seen countless examples of this before and I think that is sad.

MileHigh

You clearly make no attempt to seriously respond to the technical argument that I made that clearly shows that there is no resonance at all in operation on the exhaust side as shown in the link provided by AC.

Instead, you do a chicken dance and try throwing spaghetti against the wall and hoping some of it will stick.  It's just a lousy performance and I will deal with it in another posting.

MH,as i said--you have no idea as to what resonance is,and this is your downfall.
Im not going to argue with a clown that has limited knowledge on the ICE--as we seen on the JT thread.
I mean,look at the palava comment below

Quote-optimize the performance of the engine is a timing-based function and not a resonance-based function.
This comment just shows how out of touch you are,as all states of resonance are timing based functions. The fact that you dont-or cant put it altogether,is no fault of mine.
Just as an LC circuit will only resonate at the correct frequency,so it is with the expansion chamber and combustion cycle. The frequency(rpm) has to match the frequency of the expansion chamber before maximum amplitude is gained--this is a resonant circuit.

I have tried to explain it to you before,but as you do when you need to be right--you just pay no attention to what is told to you,and you keep on babbling away like you are doing now.
There is a reason they call it a resonator MH--because it resonates at the correct engine RPM(frequency). At this very point,the maximum HP amplitude is reached.
It is no different to an LC circuit,where the gas charge is cycled back and forth between the cylinder and expansion chamber,until at the correct RPM(frequency)a maximum amplitude is reached. The very same happens in an LC circuit,where the power is cycled back and forth between the capacitor and inductor,and at the right frequency,maximum amplitude is reached---the resonant frequency.
Both are driven circuit's,and both are resonant circuits.

Take another look at the animation on the link AC provided,and have a good hard look at the gas flow to that of the pistons position. At resonance(the correct rpm),the piston will be at the correct position in relation to the exhaust port,so as it matches the exact time that the returning pressure wave of gas can enter the exhaust port. Either side of this frequency(RPM),and this timing is out ,where the piston will either be covering most of the exhaust port,or it will not be close enough to it,and so the gas will enter the exhaust port,build cylinder pressure,and then start to flow back out of the exhaust port before the piston can close it off.

As i have said--over and over--if you wish to discuss (or argue as you do most ofter) ICEs with me,then go and learn up a bit first.


Brad

[MileHigh]

Brad:

You just made two ridiculous arguments.

Please point out where it says anything about when such systems are resonating

Right here:  "The driven frequency may be called the undamped resonance frequency or undamped natural frequency and the peak frequency may be called the damped resonance frequency or the damped natural frequency."

That's your smoking gun right there.  The "damped resonance frequency" is in reference to a system that is resonating by itself and not being driven.

If a system has a resonance frequency then it is a resonating system.
A resonating system has a resonance frequency.

Can you comprehend that?  What is this foolishness?  Get out of the Twilight Zone and get real.

What is resonance?  It's when energy oscillates back and forth in a system in two complimentary forms.  You must be able to identify the two complimentary forms of energy and the oscillation to call it resonance.

nice try,but not good enough,as you are going over ground that we already know.

This nonsense with you has been going on long enough.

This comment just shows how out of touch you are,as all states of resonance are timing based functions.

There is a reason they call it a resonator MH--because it resonates at the correct engine RPM(frequency). At this very point,the maximum HP amplitude is reached.

We are specifically discussing the scientific and engineering definition for resonance.

With the tune pipe can you identify the two complimentary forms of energy?
With the tune pipe can you identify the oscillation method for the alleged two forms of energy?

I don't think you can, and without that all you are left with is "resonance" in this case being "engine shop talk slang."  We are not talking about slang here.

Take another look at the animation on the link AC provided,and have a good hard look at the gas flow to that of the pistons position.

Yes and I can tell you exactly what you are looking at.  You are looking at an impulse-driven pressure wavefront that travels down the tune pipe until it hits the end of the pipe.  That means the tune pipe is an acoustic transmission line and the wave front hits a discontinuity in the transmission line at the end of the pipe and is reflected back.  The timing of the wave front at a certain engine RPM will be such that the fuel is put back into the cylinder for combustion.  That is not bloody resonance that is an acoustic transmission line being used as a selective delay line device.

You disagree?  Then prove me wrong and identify the two complimentary forms of energy and the oscillation mechanism.

Like it or not, you are not going to "throw a new slang definition of resonance into the mix."

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

Brad:

I know it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and squawks like a duck.  But in this case it's not a duck.

On the inlet side, it's based around a Helmholtz resonator, and that's definitely an example of resonance in action to make an ICE run more efficiently.

On the exhaust outlet side, it's using an exhaust pipe as a timing device, a delay line, to make the ICE run more efficiently.

I will say to you what you often say to me:  Find some references that state that resonance is used in the exhaust system to make an ICE run more efficiently.  AC's link clearly does not state that there is any resonance at play on the exhaust outlet side.  I would be more than happy to read them and if I am wrong I will state that right away.  (Note that mufflers don't count here because they do not improve the efficiency of the engine in the context of our discussion.)

MileHigh

-------------------------------

On another more serious note.  Sorry to my American friends and I know how it feels.

Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget
falls drop by drop upon the heart,
until, in our own despair,
against our will,
comes wisdom
through the awful grace of God.

- Aeschylus

[MileHigh]

@MH

My assumption was that the tuned pipe was not necessarily a "one shot" device and that once the exhaust port closed the returning pressure wave would partially reflect off the closing port back to the open end. We could model the pipe like a transmission line with one open end. An impulse from our exhaust port/HV coil travels down the line and part of the impulse reflects back towards the source which created it. However if the exhaust port closes or the HV coil is detached from it's source then we should see another reflection.

I don't know if the tuned pipe pressure wave was designed to oscillate within the chamber or simply reflect from the open end back to the exhaust port like a one shot device. If I designed a tuned pipe I would want the pressure wave to oscillate (more than one reflection) and do so covering a wide rpm range.[/size]

AC

I fundamentally agree with you that it is a transmission line.  In the animation and the description they describe it as a "one-shot at the optimal engine RPM."  If you noticed they also discuss a modified shape to extend the RPM range with less than optimal performance and so on.  I am not going to try to become an "enthusiast" or "expert."  What I am seeing is a transmission line used as a delay line to synchronize pushing fuel back into the cylinder at the optimum RPM.

I tried searching on many variations on "delay line" and "exhaust," "engine" etc., but could not find a good link, probably because I am not using the right terminology for engines.  You can find all sorts of electronic acoustic delay lines, and of course you always find the ancient computer memory mercury delay line.  That's a trip in itself, to think that in the 50's mainframe computers used long tubes of mercury for memory!

Anyway, I am out of gas on this stuff and if Brad wants to believe what he believes so be it.  Or if he can find a link that makes his case, I will be happy to read it.  But I am seeing an acoustic delay line in the exhaust system to optimize the combustion process, and not resonance.

MileHigh