Leyden jar dangerous?

[sm0ky2]

I could not find that diode : (  .. It must be somewhere in a box when i dismantled the microwave )


The thing i thought would be the simplest about my experiment, starts to become the most difficult ; )

But.. another option maybe.

I picked up this little beauty at the second hand shop:
A air cleaner with a negative ion generator inside.
Are those AC also ?  ( before I demolish another thing )

Can I use that?

At the risk of not knowing exactly which circuit they used
I can tell you that (most) ion-air cleaners have a rectification
That makes them DC. One plate is charged, to ionize the air
The other is grounded back through the circuit.
Which one you have (+ or -) depends on who made it.
These were in production long before the science that supports
them was released.
So earlier ( and low budget) models charge +
These are useless as "air cleaners", just a fancy ( sometimes loud)
Decoration.
The ones that clean the air release - ions.
Samsung was at the forefront of this technology and has available
Lots of data about how and why they work.


Either type of ion air cleaner should be able to separate charges
You may have to locate the opposite terminal and separate it from
The circuit so you have a + and a - terminal.
You could however only use half of then potential and spark to earth
ground, without modifications to the air cleaner.

[Grumage]

Dear sm0ky2.

Having spent a large part of my working life within the Supply industry, HV distribution, I think that any warnings about High Voltage electricity should be taken seriously. I don't doubt your post above but the simple matter is that AC derived electricity can be lethal.

Let's just " Play safe " !!   

Kind regards, Graham.

Here's my V d G.

Oh, and these are " cheap as chips "  !!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-12V-to-20000V-High-voltage-Electrostatic-Generator-Negative-Ion-Generator-MO-/152382512125?hash=item237ab49bfd:g:PUEAAOSwnHZYbLz~

[Cherryman]

At the risk of not knowing exactly which circuit they used
I can tell you that (most) ion-air cleaners have a rectification
That makes them DC. One plate is charged, to ionize the air
The other is grounded back through the circuit.
Which one you have (+ or -) depends on who made it.
These were in production long before the science that supports
them was released.
So earlier ( and low budget) models charge +
These are useless as "air cleaners", just a fancy ( sometimes loud)
Decoration.
The ones that clean the air release - ions.
Samsung was at the forefront of this technology and has available
Lots of data about how and why they work.


Either type of ion air cleaner should be able to separate charges
You may have to locate the opposite terminal and separate it from
The circuit so you have a + and a - terminal.
You could however only use half of then potential and spark to earth
ground, without modifications to the air cleaner.

Tnx. 


When i put my electroscope in the airflow they plates are separating when i activate the ionizer,
Do electroscopes display only a positive charge, or also negative ?
Although the folder stated negative ions..
And yes, i try to do some reading up as well, always nice to learn.


Edit:


I see an electroscope does not read out polarity, only charge
If I only had that HV resistor.. I could try TK's polarity methode with the neon

http://www.physicstutorials.org/home/electrostatics/electroscope

[sm0ky2]

@TK


I'm not sure which version of my Voss you are referring to
when you talk about the 'spacing', as I have refurbished
the upper (collector) disk about 30 times with different
size plates, number of plates, and spacing between them.


With larger plates, higher charges are collected by the plates.
(With no Leyden jar) but at a lower rate of collection.
Smaller plates hold smaller charges but they pass the collector
brushes more often so the rate of collection increases accordingly.
I find that the induction process itself becomes more intense with
larger plates.


During no configuration did I find an upper limit to the stored
charge collected by the Leyden jars. The more jars, the more charge,
however, it take a more time to charge up larger capacitors.
Every increase in capacitance results in an increase in potential without
Arc-over.
I did arc once, but upon examination, it was 2 brushes coming into close
proximity to the same plate, not the distance between plates, that caused
the arc over.
With the Whimshurst machine, arc-over is eminent once charge attained
exceeds the impedance between any two plates. This is because of the way
the two different machines induce and collect charges in different manners.


Whimshurst induces and collects in consecutive order. This places opposite
charges within reach of one another across the surface of the disk.
In fact, each consecutive plate holds a slightly different charge then the next
or previous, resulting in a charge gradient around the circle.
This is the cause of the arc-over.


Voss collects, THEN induces, which leaves only a small area of opposing charges
in close contact. If you follow the charges around the Voss, you can see that
the closest point between two opposing charges exists between the collector
And neutral brushes. A distance which is adjustable.
After leaving the neutral brush, the plates are induced like charge to the next
plate, and they travel TO areas of like charge for collection.
The Voss is nothing like the Whimshurst in regards to maximum potential and
plate spacing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Charge stored on a metal plate is restricted by the surface area
of the plate.
Take a single charged plate, charge it up as much as it
will hold, then discharge it to a smaller plate.
The smaller plate will have less final Q than the large plate.
When Q is much less than maximum for the area, capacitance
can be estimated by using a known Q, and the distance between points.
As we approach maximum Q for the plate, as occurs in an ESG,
this estimate falls apart.


For this reason I find your estimate (A/d) to not hold accurate, with respect to
a large Leyden jar.  This is because the d is much smaller than the assumed
Square root of A
You can fact check me on that, but the capacitance equation
needs to be taken in its' full form, not the estimated shortcut we use
In standard electronics.

Also I noticed in all of your videos that your machines all operate in
the primary mode. Have you tried lowering external capacitance to
bring them into the secondary mode of operation?
What I refer to as "direct output"?
This occurs when external capacitance is lower than the machines'
internal capacitance.  It is quite a notable distinction when it occurs.
Not just in frequency but the nature of the discharge.
Color, luminescence, applied force to another Q, etc.

[sm0ky2]

Tnx. 


When i put my electroscope in the airflow they plates are separating when i activate the ionizer,
Do electroscopes display only a positive charge, or also negative ?
Although the folder stated negative ions..
And yes, i try to do some reading up as well, always nice to learn.


Edit:


I see an electroscope does not read out polarity, only charge
If I only had that HV resistor.. I could try TK's polarity methode with the neon

http://www.physicstutorials.org/home/electrostatics/electroscope

You "can" use an electroscope to determine polarity.
But to do so you need an object of known charge.
Such as a tube t.v. Screen or a balloon on your hair.


1) charge electroscope so the leaves separate
2) bring electroscope terminal near known charged object
3) if the leaves further separate, the charges are the same
     if the leaves collapse (then reseparate), they are opposite.