Quantum Capacitor

[sm0ky2]

Here is described a theoretical capacitor of cationic and anionic flux.

Stability of a quasi-permanent charge separation is driven by quantum perturbations
within a system of two separated quantities of cationic and anionic gasses, respectively.

Two chambers are proposed, hermetically sealed in an electrically insulated vessel.
each end of a single wire inserted into each vessel acts as a medium for ionic and cationic transfer.

In the first chamber, is a quantity of (mostly) Nitrogen, in a (mostly) cationic state.
In the second chamber is a quantity of CO2, in an Anionic state (2x the amplitude of the cationic vessel)

When the system is in equilibrium, there is an equal but opposite charge imbalance
maintained from a hypothetical "zero" line from our perspective.
Let's say that the CO2 holds a value of +2(x), and the Nitrogen holds a value of -1(x).

Now, under standard capacitor theory, the - and + would balance each other out, leaving the nitrogen at a ground-state, and the CO2 at slightly above the ground-state.
But what happens in this case, the positive charge left on the CO2 (plate) induces a negative charge in the nitrogen (plate).
now we have +1 and -1 (should equal 0 right?, not in this case)
The molecular structure of the CO2 has an electrical tendency to maintain a +2, with respective to the N-plate's -1 charge.
While the two charged vessels have a tendency to balance out, electrically -
the molecules in the CO2 chamber, have a more overpowering tendency to balance out amongst themselves.

This process makes the Quantum Capacitor self-charging.
An electrical charge will always be present on the two plates, from our perspective.
This is the equilibrium state of the system.
To draw this charge off, creates a non-equilibrium state within the capacitor, which will try to correct itself by "re-charging"

[sm0ky2]

The operation of this capacitor is based on the theory of double-layer ionic capacitors (supercaps)
Except, that it utilizes the potential between two separated cationic and anionic substrates. (instead of only one)

[Reiyuki]

Fascinating idea Smoky, I'd never seen someone bring up this concept before.

- With the nature of gases and plasmas, do you think this concept would work better at standard atmospheric pressure, or better in compression/vacuum?

- How pure would the gases have to be?    Our atmosphere is already ~80% nitrogen, perhaps we only need CO2 and use a plate for the other terminal?

- I wonder if liquid Nitrogen or liquid/supercritical CO2 would have better or different effects?


You know many Paintball Supply stores carry small CO2 and Nitrogen tanks...
Buy one of each, dip both tanks in several layers of dielectric(wax?) and use an electrometer/voltmeter between them?

[sm0ky2]

Fascinating idea Smoky, I'd never seen someone bring up this concept before.

- With the nature of gases and plasmas, do you think this concept would work better at standard atmospheric pressure, or better in compression/vacuum?

- How pure would the gases have to be?    Our atmosphere is already ~80% nitrogen, perhaps we only need CO2 and use a plate for the other terminal?

- I wonder if liquid Nitrogen or liquid/supercritical CO2 would have better or different effects?


You know many Paintball Supply stores carry small CO2 and Nitrogen tanks...
Buy one of each, dip both tanks in several layers of dielectric(wax?) and use an electrometer/voltmeter between them?

that's exactly where my line of though was going, using atmosphere as the source of nitrogen.
yes, there would be some ionizing gasses O2 , H, Co2, etc as impurities, but such would just create inefficiencies,
not stop the entire process from working.

pure CO2 is easy to come by, small arms market, or the cooking industry.

the mathematics already covers (pressure) in the molar count. so such pressure is irrelevant.
the quantity of gas and the volume of the container already defines the pressure.

the determining factor is the impedance of the gasses and the distance between the electrodes.

too "wide" a container will cause the gasses to not ionize on the outer edges, so 'overtaxing' the process is not possible.
what happens is a ionic stream forms in the quantity of gas that is ionized by the potential voltage.
like a river through the middle of the tank of gas.
being as it is, my though is that the container should be the same width as the height.
which is the potential gradient that causes ionization at the potential of the source.

what is that voltage? I do not exactly know, but what I CAN tell you is that direct electron impact ionization of CO2 (which is the heavier molecule)
occurs at around 24v potential.
We are not doing 'direct electron impact', what we are doing here is ion dispersion/(cation/anion dispersion)
which is only a % of this effect.
mathematical estimates place this value at approx. ~ 10,000V per Mol of carbon dioxide gas, in a symmetrical container.
the nitrogen side will 'ionize' at a much lower potential.
so the minimum potential must be based on the CO2 side of the capacitor.

[sm0ky2]

Having a few yrs to mull this one over


I think the best experimental approach would
be to use dry ice to create a liquid CO2 Leyden jar
This can be done at relatively low pressures in a
plastic bottle (Gatorade works great for this)


Liquid nitrogen is out of most people's reach
and there will be a thermal issue to deal with.
so I won't even go there in this thread.


But using (gas purged) atmosphere at different
pressures may give us a platform to test with.


The capacitor should be shorted to earth ground
For a period of time. To set a standard neutral state.
Measurements then over time would determine
wether or not a 'self-charging' condition had been
achieved.


Choice of electrodes will be important. Though
predicting the actual effect of each conductor choice
is way more math than I care to do right now.
Unless anyone wants to give that a shot.......
I think it would be best to select a range of electrode
materials to experiment with.


Kapton is a good inexpensive insulation layer for this
It is available is a variety of thicknesses.