12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !

[neptune]

I am a seeker of truth . Sometimes when we seek the truth , the truth turns out  to be not what we had hoped for .I spent an hour in the workshop today , and repeated my experiments , taking very careful measurements . The best results I could obtain with this model are 60% efficiency . Although this model is crude , it has good bearings at both pivots . Note that I have not proved the 2SO is not overunity , just this particular one .This is a shame in that if I had found an efficiency of , say 95% , I would have felt more inspired to invest my very scarce resources in building a bigger , better model .
       That is why I am asking for help from anyone who has already built a bigger model . A few minutes of your time would enable you to use my method to test the efficiency . To simplify testing I am making an assumption . I am assuming that if the output arm raises a weight , even if the weight is then allowed to fall , work has been done . Someone [was it perhaps Cloxxi ?] suggested that this is not work , just an oscillation . However is this not what people do at the gym , and it makes them sweat , so they feel they are doing work . I am also making the assumption that if we limit the amount that the weight rises by a physical stop , we control the amount of work done [ we definitely thus limit the damping effect on the pendulum .] So on my model , I conclude that whatever work done at the output is definitely extracted from the pendulum with a best efficiency of 60% . Can anyone show a higher efficiency using the same methods please ?

[gdez]

Hey neptune,
I have built a decent size tsmo, and I can tell you that if you want to get serious with a large model, be prepared to pay. To use the dimesions that fishman says may be hard.  i don't agree with him about the actaul length of the pendulum, I feel it is the weight and leverage ratio's that are what is important. As I have said before, I had a small model that worked so well, that it kind a sold me on this tsmo idea. Another thing that was interesting was water pumping. They numbers I figured on some of my water pumping experiments seeemed promising. If you read/ Search "escapements wiki", you will read about a liquid driven escapement that is very old. Calculating how much water I could raise, compared to how much I could pump seemed workable. And undisputable if it worked. My newer pump designs seem like they will work better with air than water though and I am still gathering parts to give it a shot. Also neptune, If you have not already you should read Peter lindamanns model builder guide and watched rheads videos, you should. Raymond has a very good understanding of the tsmo, and he is an excellent person to talk to. To me, he has already done a lot of the measurements that you are trying to do, but I do not think that it is as easy to loop back the tsmo as everybody thinks it should be. Clokki's comments depress me a little bit, but she is right, Milkovic made the 12x claim, and to me, it looks good on paper, but show me what works.  I have half a dozen or more designs that work on phun, but I have found that making them work in real life is pretty tough. Some of my models show promise, but would put tremendous force on the bearings. so cheapies are almost out of the question. One more thing. Don't discount the " tuning", all models should be adjustable at every important part of the machine. To me the tuning is the key to optimum preformance.
Gdez

[johnny874]

I once opened a paper the group published, and even with my highschool psysics I could tell within seconds they were making up incorrect formulae with incorrect units of measurement as outcome. A waste of time. It's not up to us to school them, they are to school us.

If they know it so well, they'd build it. They sure have the building skills.
Making wild claims, and letting the world figure out a way to make it work, after which they can claim invention.

If they could point out the underlying math without (intentional or unintensional) errors, this forum would build a working device, 2SO or otherwise, instantly.
Present me a precise pendulum path and the amount of energy to be extracted from CF, and I'll tell you how to build the device to do so.
Same for the second stage (weren't we suppose to extract all those buckets of FE there?). Tell us how much to extract, and we will. Don't blame us when the result is a stalled 2SO.
This is no hint of FE, not even anomalous behavior that I'm aware of.

  Hi Cloxxki,
Building is not always easy. Myself, I may need to move to a place where I will have room for equipment. Still, I have worked to learn what it will take to build what I believe has already been accomplished.
With 2 pendulums, I don't think they claimed OU but as you mentioned would probably claim it as their invention and wrongly so. There might be a way for one pendulum to power another for an OU device. This is one reason why I like Tom's idea that was originally posted in the thread "Was Bessler for Real ?" as he wonders if it would lead to a working Bessler wheel.
It seems credit is what some want while others are willing to help. That has always been one of the difficulties with what is supposedly at stake with such an invention. But I did post one aspect of a pendulum's behavior that everyone seems to have ignored. Actually 2 of them and both important in pursuing OU in my opinion..
Myself, not sure when I can build again. For me, it is frustrating as I am tired of going over the math and concepts ad nauseum and would like to see what happens when rubber meets pavement.

                                                                                                                                Jim

[norman6538]

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
«
There are a few things that we can be sure of in life.

People who claim that they've made a perpetual motion machine are either delusional or a con artist.

Your machine did not achieve overunity.  Please tell me where the extra energy comes from so I can get a good laugh.

How do you explain this not perpetual motion pendulum but this extra work source of energy
in this pendulum below?  Norman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FzK2XKQ-74

[gdez]

@ norman,
  I suggest you Check out the escapements wiki also, i think that you'll see that we have already been using gravity, force, work, distance, etc for quite some time, as in several thousand years. Our ancestors built amazing works through knowledge of simple mathmatics and I am sure that we can do better. One observation that I feel is important with the tsmo is  the "moment of weightlessness". That is where I feel the tsmo gains it's power. I think that the argument about initial input put into the process are not important. It is no different then a gunshot. For a gun shot, think of the energy put in by accumulating the materials, mixing them, packaging them and then finally firing them. Same for oil and gas. I wish I would have done some better more reliable results with some of my earlier experiments, but I didn't. Some models work better off balance, some models seem to work better balanced. Some of my best models work off of "imbalance". Imbalance seems to be what all the bessler wheel fans seem to be aiming for, but most bessler wheels seem to aiming for just getting the wheel going around. Because of that, I have no interest in Bessler wheel stuff. From my research, a Bessler wheel just won't work. Even if it did, so what. I just don't see what use it would be to keep a wheel going around with no output. I have my own ideas, and I am willing to try to expain them to everybody, but I don't feel like getting bashed by evrybody about them. Milkovics ideas are sound to me, but the eccentric flywheel is where the power seems to be. In my trade ( industrial power and hvac),imbalance is the worst thing you can imagine. At high rpms, it can be very destructive. we strive to avoid that. Resonance? In a tall building, we spend many dollars and manhours to prevent "resonance" because the simple notion of an "unbalanced pump" can actaullly vibrate a building to death( much like tesla's supposed earth quake device). Lot's of questions, but the only way they are answered is by trying your ideas. Maybe imbalance is what we are looking for. Or a way to exploit it. Anyway @neptune, I am not trying to discourage you at all, I would like to show you some of my simulations and see what you think. Talk soon,Greg