Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment

[F6FLT]

It is a looped device. The battery charged can be used to power device and charge yet another battery, and endlessly so. A perfectly looped device, right?

Urban legend.
We have no proof that Bedini's device works endlessly. If we had it, we wouldn't be here to search for OU when we would have it for years! His device is looped but not sustainable, like a battery connected to a resistance.

Not sequitur. We don't have not a single measurement that proves OU. Or do you know one, maybe you can say. So what is the problem? There is no need and there can never be a need to go away from the conventional methods of research.

The problem is that: "Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment".
This is the title you have chosen yourself. Why this misleading title and reference in your first post to a "zero Lenz effect" before describing your experiment, if you don't have a single measurement indicating OU or no Lenz effect?
I thought you were talking about things related to the subject.

[ayeaye]

We have no proof that Bedini's device works endlessly. If we had it, we wouldn't be here to search for OU when we would have it for years! His device is looped but not sustainable, like a battery connected to a resistance.

You told what is necessary is a looping device, so this is looping device all right.

"Zero lenz effect", this is what i thought, and i also said that this is only what i think.

Desolation.

[ayeaye]

F6FLT, now what is the value of your LTspice model? That you find when the reality differs from the model? It certainly does, the capacitance can only be modeled as many small capacitors between the conductors after some intervals all the length of the wire. There may not be such model in LTspice, because it is not many small coils in series, it is one coil, these capacitors would be like a part of the coil. Maybe there is something like that for transmission lines, but also for some restricted case perhaps. One may have to write ones own equations to really model it. This may have some purpose, to compare the simulation with the real, find the difference, that may enable to find everything that is going on there.

Modeling a coil at instances of time is even not so very difficult, the differential equation for induction is very simple. May be an interesting thing for some, sure it also has been done so one doesn't have to start from nothing.

But F6FLT, please understand we don't want to see only the output of your model. Because any value that your model may ever have, is in comparing it with the real data. So please also post the screenshot of your oscilloscope in addition to your simulation of that. Just if you want your work to have any value.

Bedini SG is indeed, looping and, no overunity whatsoever, so everybody should rejoice.

If showing that there is no overunity gives so much joy, then why don't you show that the various coils that are believed to have overunity, such as rodin coils, really have none? Or then again i don't see what gives joy and what doesn't.

[gyulasun]

Hi F6FLT,

Thanks for describing what you find by probing the E field around the bifilar coil, it is interesting. (Reply #175 in previous page)

I wonder if you still consider to design a bifilar coil where the lower and upper resonant frequencies would coincide?
I think you would need to decide first how you drive that coil because as you found the two resonances occur at two different driving methods.
Then decide whether you would increase Cs1 and Cs2 to bring the upper frequency down or you would choose to increase the lower resonant frequency by appropiate coil construction to reduce Cp.
But: now, after the simulations (Reply #179), I wonder if you still think that strange effects may be going to happen, when the lower and upper resonant frequencies are met?   

Regarding simulations on bifilar coils, would like to show such here:
https://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg505402/topicseen/#msg505402

However, in that simulation the two bifilar windings are connected in series (as per in the Tesla patent, Coil for electromagnets).   
That thread, by the way, includes several ideas with measurements and with COP > 1 results but in the end the errors are recognized... 

Addition:  the bifilar coils are wound from normal enameled wires, see this video how they looked like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXKJjNAZDEM   

Gyula

[F6FLT]

Hi Gyula,

I have now understood the bifilar coil in a quasi-stationary regime i.e. when the dimensions of the coils (not the wire length which can be much longer) are small in comparison with the wavelengths of the signals. This is largely due to your comments about the two capacitors.

The two frequencies are not parameters of the bifilar coil. Each one depends on the setup, in particular the highest. We can have only one for a given setup so my idea to make them converge is a non sens.
Either we have a low impedance connecting both ends of the coils (like a generator), then the small parasitic capacitance that loops them through air is negligible and we have the resonance LCω²=1 with C the large capacitance between wires, or we keep the ends open or weakly coupled, and then the two wires work as one and resonate at LCpω²=1 where Cp is the small parasitic capacitance. A more balanced compromise could be made leading to any intermediate frequency, through connections with adjusted impedances, but I don't see any particular interest.

In Tesla's patent, the wires are indeed connected in series, a case that does not correspond to either of the two I mentioned, because they have only been used to characterize the fundamental parameters.
In DC it's easy: we have the same number of turns in a bifilar or monofilar coil of the same size and wire, so the same current produces the same magnetic field. It is quite normal that TinselKoala measures almost the same value. At low frequency, it's the same thing. Although the capacitor is charged/discharged at each cycle, it does not allow a high current to pass through because its impedance remains high at this low frequency. At higher frequencies, especially near resonance frequencies that are different between the two coils, it is likely that the measured fields will be different.

I have simplified my previous LTspice schematic of my bifilar coil and I'm now designing a component easy to use in a model (see attached picture). I hate this non-intuitive software so I'm struggling a little bit. When it is ready (if I succeed) I will release it in a new thread and I will test Tesla's configuration.

There is no need of simulating the bifilar coil with many discrete components. A bifilar coil, or even a transmission line, is a quadrupole. It is sufficient to define four ports and establish the equations linking the voltages and currents of all ports to each other.