Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment

[ayeaye]

Ok, the figure below shows what powers there are in the LR circuit during the input part of the cycle, and what is the relation between these powers. This drawing was made with Inkscape

[TinselKoala]

Now it seems as though you are playing around with what is defined as "input" and "output".
What is the power supply in your circuit? It is the battery. Therefore the input power is the battery voltage times the current flowing into or out of the battery, corrected for the duty cycle. This can be measured with a current-viewing resistor in the negative supply line to the circuit.

It is also the case that the FG will be supplying some power to the circuit. It is for this reason that I prefer to work with circuits that are entirely self-contained, with any powered oscillator actually on-board and part of the circuit. After all, if a subsystem is necessary for a device to work, the power to that subsystem surely must be included in the input power to the total system.

What is the load in your circuit? Is it the power being dissipated in the two resistors? This is also straightforward to measure, by several methods. Chet (ramset) mentioned fixed-loss-to-ambient, but in this case the absolute power levels and the difference between in and out are so small that FLTA isn't going to be easy to do. But one may also simply look at the voltage drop across the load and the waveform and a little math and one may derive the power dissipation of the load.
I'm not sure that your method is properly measuring input and output power in this circuit.

In any case, should one need to operate mathematically on the data from a DSO, most of them can dump waveform data in CSV format that can be read and operated upon by just about any spreadsheet.

And the cut-and-weigh-it paper methodology worked well for many years before the advent of DSOs. Paper is a lot more uniform than you imagine, I think, and I could dust off the Mettler up there to prove it, but I won't.  I imagine that some of the calculations that eventually got Apollo astronauts to the moon were done that way. In fact I actually have one of the oscilloscopes that they did it with. (A Tektronix RM503 from the Blade Dynamics Laboratory at NASA Ames.)

[TinselKoala]

Since your transistor doesn't conform to the data sheet pinout, this is a problem. It could be a fake transistor, it could be mislabeled, it could be damaged in some strange way, or something else. Where did your transistor come from? Is it possible to get more from that source that have the same pinout as yours?
I have a sneaking feeling that the transistor is critical here. Or have you tried other transistor types and attained similar results? It would be nice to resolve this question.

[ayeaye]

Now it seems as though you are playing around with what is defined as "input" and "output".

I think we should first agree what are we talking about. As when we are talking about different things and even mix them together, then nothing will sure ever be clear. So when i below say that you are wrong, this doesn't mean that you are wrong about everything, this is just what i talked about and what my experiment was about.

One may talk about overunity in various systems, whole circuit, parts of the circuit, single components. And all these overunities are not one and the same at all, one is not the other.

My experiment was about overunity in the coil, and about overunity in the coil only. And this is the only thing that i have been talking in this thread all the time. This is the most important to understand, but you go like i were talking about water on mars or whatever.

Regarding measuring overunity in the coil, the input is the power consumed by the coil, which is at every moment of time the current going through the coil, multiplied by the voltage on the coil, when the power is supplied to the coil from the external power source. By all the Ohm's law. The output power of the coil is the power of the back-emf generated by the coil when no external power is supplied to the coil. Again at every moment of time it is the voltage on the coil multiplied by the current generated by the coil. Again by the Ohm's law.

Is that made clear?

What is the power supply in your circuit? It is the battery.

Right. Or it mat be a power adapter, anything that supplies power to the circuit.

Therefore the input power is the battery voltage times the current flowing into or out of the battery, corrected for the duty cycle. This can be measured with a current-viewing resistor in the negative supply line to the circuit.

Wrong, wrong conclusion, doesn't follow. The input power in our case is the power consumed by the coil. Now you may say how is that, batteries supply power and this is well known. Yes, but it is like one saying that it isn't raining, and the other saying that it is wrong, it is raining now in Alaska. In the other words, you put it like it were always right, every time in all contexts, no it isn't, this is a logical fallacy.

It is also the case that the FG will be supplying some power to the circuit. It is for this reason that I prefer to work with circuits that are entirely self-contained, with any powered oscillator actually on-board and part of the circuit. After all, if a subsystem is necessary for a device to work, the power to that subsystem surely must be included in the input power to the total system.

If you always want to measure overunity and power only in the entire circuit, then yes. But my experiment was not about that. And for the research purposes this is not proper at all, we are interested in a particular natural phenomenon, not how to make it to power a car, this is engineering and these are different things, my experiment was about research. It's like they do experiments in the particle accelerator and they should think how to make a power station that uses the quantum physics effects that they found. No they don't do that, they do the research, and if this were what they had to do then they couldn't do research.

What is the load in your circuit? Is it the power being dissipated in the two resistors?

No. It is the power generated by the coil when there is no outside power supplied to the coil, as i said.

I'm not sure that your method is properly measuring input and output power in this circuit.

Yes you are not sure that it is proper because it is not proper in your mind. Because you want to do something else.

In any case, should one need to operate mathematically on the data from a DSO, most of them can dump waveform data in CSV format that can be read and operated upon by just about any spreadsheet.

Yes, one can use spreadsheets too. Spreadsheets are not so good for extracting data though.

Anyway, if we don't agree to talk about the same thing, then all that we do here makes no sense. If one keeps talking about the fence and other about the gate of the fence, then inevitably this is an exercise of vanity.

[TinselKoala]

Look, you can poke around inside of just about any circuit and find two measurements that aren't the same. And if you call the smaller one "input" and the larger one "output"... well then, COP overunity!
We are concerned with output power that exceeds _normal_ sources of input. We are providing the circuit with battery power. If it's extracting energy from the eleventh dimension by the bifilar coil, that's fine, that will show up in the _output_ measurement by  making it exceed the _battery_ supplied input power.

I'm really sorry that on the figure 3 below there is Arduino, not the signal generator. The experiment below was done using the Ne555 generator, but later i tried to have shorter pulses, so i changed things and now i have no device left, all is disassembled, but except the 555 generator, the circuit on that figure is exactly how it was during the experiment.

RULE NUMBER ONE of overunity research: If you have a device that produces OU, real or only measurements, DO NOT EVER TAKE IT APART. If you must take something apart, build another one and take _that_ one apart.


Now... the bad news is that I am unable to reproduce your scope traces. In fact the circuit behaves just as a conventional circuit analysis would predict: as an inverting amplifier, taking the 5 volt input pulses from the FG (in my case) and amplifying them to the 12 volt level of the supply. There is very little effect from connecting or disconnecting the coaxial bifilar coil. I even tried my own much higher inductance and capacitance true Tesla Bifilar Pancake coil. What you were looking at with your scope set to very high sensitivity I can't imagine.

I have also tried connecting the transistor "incorrectly" using different pinouts. No luck.
So we have to go way back to basics before we start talking about any of that other stuff. Like I said in the beginning, perfectly processed garbage is still garbage. I'm afraid that I have to have confidence in my setup and results -- which are basically, I am using the schematic you approved, the input parameters you've specified, and a coaxial coil. The only difference is that my coil is made from a different kind of wire than yours and is probably a bit shorter overall.  Unfortunately.... YOU TOOK YOUR CIRCUIT APART, so we can't do some simple comparisons and scoposcopy to see where the problem lies.  Perhaps you are simply operating with some kind of damaged transistor or something.

But thanks for a relatively entertaining afternoon, anyway.



ETA: Note that CH1 is AC coupled in the scopeshot below. This is because there is a large DC offset in the signal, as you can predict from looking at the schematic.