Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs

[gyulasun]

Hi captainpecan, 

Thanks for your kind activity here.   

Regarding your 2nd drawing in Reply #2 above (CaptainpecanPMassistedCoilRotorMagnet (2).png) I think you are surely aware of the fact that the rotor magnet will induce voltage in the coil, all the way it moves in front of the coil+core assembly.  Lenz law will appear to reduce the repel forces I think when the coil current is switched on (coil will have a closed circuit) to toss the magnet out after the TDC. This is inherent in this assembly but it is surely worth testing whatever the outcome will be.  I agree with what you wrote in the 1st post above:  "I believe if there isn't any OU available from these various setups, there is at the very least extreme possibilities of increased efficiency."   

Hopefully the washers as a ferromagnetic core will not develop too much eddy current loss and neither will the 1 mm thick metal disk covering the center either.  Only a rotating setup will answer this by checking core temperatures.

The high number of turns is surely good for obtaining stronger magnetic fields and if the driving current is low enough to get the needed AmperTurns, then the wire resistance loss may remain acceptable.  Would you measure the DC resistance of the coil.  May I also ask whether you have an oscilloscope.

Gyula

[captainpecan]

Thanks for the response and looking over what I've done so far. I can't seem to edit the post and add the measurements you requested. I'll add it when it let's me.

The coil I made is 2200 turns of 30 AWG wire. I used 119 grams of copper which made a coil of 80.1 ohms. If I figure correctly would be close to 800 ft.

I do have a couple oscilloscopes. Been a long time since I used them. Just may have to thump the dust off of those baby's. 

I am aware of the lens law that will induce drag on the permanent magnet on the rotor. It is duely noted. Hopefully it will help drop the current draw a bit while it is adding a little drag so maybe the tradeoff will be worth it. It seems to me that there should be quite a bit more torque for less current draw and less "on" time for good results. But of course, it's all theory at this point. The bench will tell the tale! With my design it is extremely easy for me to swap the rotor for iron instead.

I also am wondering the same thing about residual magnetism. I would feel better about it if I was flipping polarity but as of now, they will be pulsed with 1 polarity. After all, there is permanent magnet giving it a constant flux already. But, I figured it is worth a try to see if it makes enough of a difference to be an issue. Guess I will find out. But the ease of build for anyone with access to a simple hardware store makes it worth a shot.

[gyulasun]

Hi Floor and captainpeacan, 

I think there is a 12 hour long Modify time period available for any member to edit the already posted text, counted from the time of posting. 

Captainpeacan, thanks for measuring the DC resistance, it is relatively high but surely the AmperTurns can also be considerable, especially if you can increase the supply voltage to have increased coil peak current.

Gyula

[Floor]

Copied to here from the "new-electromagnet-configuration-4-times-out-verses-in" topic


There are several methods of approach in regard to electro permanent magnet interactions.

No doubt.  In some conditions the combination of an electromagnet and a
permanent magnet will      increase         the magnetic force from the magnet.
They add up.

No doubt.  In some conditions the combination of an electromagnet and a
permanent magnet will       decrease      the magnetic force from the magnet.
They subtract.

There are other things that one might hope to accomplish.

for example...

The turning on and off of a magnetic current, by a method which might in some
ways be like unto the way a transistor can turn on or off an electric current.
I refer to this as      shunting      the magnetic current into another path or as
simply  shunting.

Some transistors use an extremely low amount of power to do that switching.

If a permanent magnet can be switched in that way, this would be free energy from
that magnet.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
Again copied to here from the
"new-electromagnet-configuration-4-times-out-verses-in"
topic

There are numerous related other approaches to the goal of gaining energy as well. 

Clarification of intent / approaches / design and some possibilities ?

We have concepts and / or designs,  wherein the intent is to
                                   suppress
a permanent magnet by means of the application of an opposing
electromagnet.  This is already being used in scrap metal lifting cranes
and so on.  No    direct    net gain here.
... ... ... ... ...
We have concepts and / or designs,  wherein the intent is to
                                      shunt
magnetic force in such a manner that the process of the
        cyclical, shunting and / or switching of that magnetic current from
shunted to un shunted,
                           will consume less energy than can be gained from
the energy difference between the application of that force when shunted and un - shunted.
... ... ... ... ...
We have concepts and / or designs,  wherein the intent is to
                                            balance forces
                 such that force vectors and / or other characteristics
              may be rearranged without a net opposition by magnetic forces
                                               and in turn
              those rearrangements give rise to  interactions which are profitable
                                      in terms of an energy gain.

... ... ... ... ...
We have concepts and / or designs,  wherein the intent is to
         stall or slow down in time / create some form of stasis in an event
                                     during which period we
                                     move a field or exit it,
                                                     or
                       in some other way alter some relationship/s
     such that force vectors and / or other characteristics may be rearranged without
                                                or with little
             significant opposition and there by profit, in term of an energy gain.
... ... ... ... ...
                  We have concepts and / or designs,  wherein the intent is
                   multiplications or additions (cascading) of force where in
                                                          there exits
                                                    no   apparent  gain,
                              because increases must be reversed or undone
                                             in order to proceed cyclically.
                                                                but
                      those forces can while in their multiplied state / conditions
                                                  give rise to changes
               which do not subtract from the energy used to cause reversal / undoing
                                                          and instead
                      only cause a delay in time in the macro world, of that reversal / undoing
                                   (apparently simultaneous to that reversal / undoing)
                                                              behavior
                               (which is  in some manner is like unto the behaviors
                                        of those, theorized, particles, which physics
                                                          has termed virtual).
... ... ... ... ...

                                              Some combinations of the above.

                                              Some of the above may be statements of
                                              essentially the same things.

                                              Other options.

[captainpecan]

Just jotting down mental notes here for a bit:

I just did some initial tests of the coil before I start assembling. I wanted to understand the power needed and expected results. Well, I got results I was not expecting. I can't say they are entirely good or bad. Just that I expected something else.

First off, the only power supply I have available at the moment is a 12v 1 amp that actually tops out at 13.6v. My setup for this quick bench test was very simple. Hook the coil up to the power supply and increase the voltage very slowly and watch how the coil reacts. I was initially simply wanting know about what minimal voltage I was looking for to use when I assemble to get at the very least a running motor.
I have downloaded 2 apps for my phone. Pole Detector which is simply a N or S reading app to tell you magnet polarity. It also makes it easy just to see how far away from the electromagnet a pole can be detected at all. That other app is called Gauss Meter for which it does actually read the strength of magnetic fields. Both apps actually work very well for this simple test.

I was immediately seeing an increase in magnetic field with .5v and less than 10ma because it didn't even register yet. That is good news and shows that the 2200 turns of 30 awg  wire did not make to much resistance and is creating an effective magnetic field as others have said would happen, such as Adams when using high turns of small wire on the Adams Motor. Here is what I expected to see. I expected to see as I slowly increase the voltage, the strength of the magnetic field will grow at an even rate. But I expect a certain time of increasing voltage in which the permanent magnet will be fully projecting forward and there will be a strong increase in field. After which the increase in voltage should make less of a difference in the magnetic field because there would no longer be much advantage to having a permanent magnet embedded. But.... instead, I saw a simple linear increase in field strength all the way to max 13.6 volts the power supply can deliver. The effects were following the exact same results. The distance away from the electromagnet it detects the pole is increasing linearly in the exact same way. Not exactly as I expected, yet completely understandable.
But here is where I got a bit confused. The design I am trying to implement first, is using permanent magnets on the rotor as well and not just iron. The plan is to let the magnet attract to the core of the coil on the way in, and just past TDC, turn on the coil and release the permanent magnet field inside it to appose the rotor magnet and force it away with what I assume would be a nice strong push for a smaller amount of energy input.
But that is also not what I am seeing. The magnet is still attracted to the core when the voltage is maxed out. There seems to be a little repulsion at dead center, but the slightest move to the side, it attracts to the washers of the core.
This tells me that the core is not fully saturated and the actual full strength of the permanent magnet inside the core I do not believe has even been opened up yet.
It appears to me that this is not a good setup for a simple 12v power supply to run. I had hoped it would be enough. It seems like I will need to be pulsing it with up to 30 volts as I have seen others do on other pulse motor designs such as tinmans work in another thread. I will try and come up with a stronger power supply, but until then, I will use some batteries in series and capacitors to try and figure out what voltage releases that force of the permanent magnet from the core.

Not bad results. I guess for some reason I expected to see a lower voltage to have the results I was looking for. But the thin wire is not pushing through high current for low voltage to do as I expected. I will have to use high voltage to get there. Current needed is of course something I will find out.