Is this the first selfrunning overunity motor w/o batteries ? Mike?s motor

[MeggerMan]

Hi Steve,
You can get a device radio controlled model makers use - Ripmax peak prodigy pro.
I can measure the capacity of a battery by drawing a constant current from it over a period of time.
Perhaps an easier method is to use very large electrolytic capacitors instead of batteries. You can work out the energy used and energy generated by the voltage and capacity of the capacitor.

Is there any way of connecting your device to be self running?

If the Winmotor works I will be doing the same as you and make a solid state version and apply the ideas obtained from the WinMotor to a modified MEG device.
I think you are on the right path, keep going and post some results.

Regards
Rob

[Nic]

Mr. DMBoss,
Good info.Thanks for Alexander's Pat.
Nic

argona369 wrote:

Remember, Duplication replication modification.

I am ROTFL... I will be surprised if anyone gets a self running motor within the next month (++)  with the approaches taken so far. Shotgun approaches seldom work.   I maybe wrong (hope I am) and someone may get lucky.  I wonder if Mike knew what a Pandoras box he opened.  Without Mike providing a few more details a real replication effort is most likely to fail. I suspect Mike is were I would be if I had a self running motor in front of me. First eurphoria, then disbelief, then shock, then paranoia as tons of people are after him for more information. Is anyone surprised he went underground. Not me.. Perhaps he will come back in a couple of weeks.. I see John Bedini has joined the fray as well since it was based on his window motor (thanks) but so far I have only seen one video of a self running motor off of common capacitor and not a battery and that is Mike's video. So my hat is off to Mike for achieving what others had hoped to achieve. Mike.. if you happen to be reading this then ..Great job Mike.. Hope you are well and thanks for a glimmer of hope.

I concur.  Haphazard replication without knowing the details or worse with thinking you know what/why makes it work without any data to go on are a recipe for failure.

I have found what appears to be a serious teaching and example of prior art of the working principle Mike has stumbled upon.

See attached patent by Alexander, US3913004.

It uses a motor-generator with closely coupled coils acting as transformer between the motor/primary and generator/secondary.

Mike's relay is nonsense and can't conduct as it is for AC and switches on/off at zero crossing, and only operates well above the voltage he has here.

But his "generator coil" (3rd coil) is always connected to the capacitor through the FW bridge!

If this were true, then I reasoned I should be able to do some tests on the bench to verify the principle.  I did so with an old Adams style pulse motor that has dual wound coils.

I can get more charge going to the capacitor than is delivered to the motor coils.  BUT only under very tight specifications!  This test bed cannot self run - but it can indicate what makes Mike's and Alexander's device work. (however it told me the right ballpark of things to do to make a decent replication of Mike's motor/generator)

The optimal coil ratios are important as the generator coil has the FWD diode drop to contend with.  So generator coil has to be more turns than motor coil as Alexander teaches and my bench tests revealed as well.

1:1 ratio of generator to motor coil turns yields no charge on capacitor.  2:1 ratio makes a tiny gain in excess charge.  3:1 ratio is worse in that far more charge is used for motoring than is generated here with optical timing.

the best so far is a ratio of 3:2, or 1.5:1.  That is for every 1 turn of motor coil you need 1.5 turns of the generator coil. (the geometry magnetic fields, and coil wire resistance will affect things greatly - what Alexander found was for a commercially available motor generator that he rewound)

Generator coil should be larger wire size than the motor coil for lower DC resistance or the same DC resistance as the motor coil even though it is longer wire length. (well I am guessing here based on what makes the best lowering of the motor coil's Counter EMF by the transformer action - only experiment will tell for sure.  But the coil impedance ratio is an important factor and Mike did use two different wire gauges.  I'm not as sure about the correct coil resistance values as I am about the rest of the info in this message)

Timing is ultra critical and will NOT work to make excess charge even if the coils were perfect!  the timing envelope needs to be adjustable - so work that into the transistor circuit and/or the trigger winding turns count. (the voltage is nearly sine like, and trigger window needs to be a slice starting at  about 10-30% above zero for ON, and then about 10-30% before it crosses zero again - only one half the waveform is for motoring action while generator action proceeds all the time with the FW bridge) (I know exactly why this might work if I am right about the Alexander action, from considerable experience with pulse motors that are O/U on the bench but the explanation is too long for now)

Also note the US patent office issued a patent to Alexander 30 years ago for an over unity machine, where he specifically claims 300% gain in useful output!  So conspiracy theorist's arguments about "suppression" are dashed.  The only suppression is our own ignorance and the members of the flat earth society in academia that refuse to look at claims of O/U still, due to the ingrained dogma.

Also maybe knowing that Mike is merely replicating a form of Alexander's teaching might lift some of the burden he may feel at being this "pioneer" when in fact the knowledge is already out there.

Mike merely made an electronically commutated version of Alexander in my view, and from my preliminary tests on the bench.  I have enough detail to try one now, although my ballpark values may need adjusting when Murphy kicks you in reality.  It may or may not work the first time out.  testing and analysis of results of the first one.... and then modifications may be required to get it right.

Cheers

[neptune]

Hi, still very busy at work, so no building in the near future. Has anybody considered using the ceramic magnets from old Microwave ovens? These are disc shaped, about one cm thick and about 5 or6 cms diameter. They are very powerful but have a hole through the middle. WARNING. Microwaves have a cpacitor which may hold a charge of several thousand volts for moths after use. So discharge it in a sefe manner before tinkering. Do not try to use this cap on your motor as it has a built in "bleed" resistor.
           Also, for securing magnets, plastic cable ties may work better than tape. To those doing research, I wish success.

[hartiberlin]

MeggerMan wrote:

Hi Stefan,
I can see you are excited, we all are, but I wish you would research more before posting incorrect / misleadng information on the forum.
I posted last weekend all the specs on various hall switches, one of which was the OHS3030U:
http://www.optekinc.com/pdf/OH090-0HS3100.PDF
which is UNIPOLAR.
Operate 205 gauss and release 160 gauss.
Therefore it would make more sense that this is indeed the one that Mike used.
You need to start building one rather than just talking about it.



Rob

Hi Rob,
well in one drawing Mike wrote,
that he is using a bipolar 3030 hall IC.

Do you think he mixed something up there ?
Maybe he meant inded unipolar and not just bipolar
and just mixed that up...Hmmm...

Too bad, Mike is not anymore here .
Does anybody still have private email contact with him ?
Maybe someone can ask him and let us know some answers...

Thanks for pointing out this PDF file above.
Sounds also more realistic to me, if he used this one.

Many thanks.

Best regards, Stefan.

[hartiberlin]

Peter Lindemann wrote a nice guide about the eddy currents:

Hi All,

I?ve seen a few things in different people?s photos and comments that are worth addressing. My comments are based on my own experience in building these types of machines.

Dave, the pictures of your plastic frame are great. But before you start winding your coils on it, make sure that your winding frame is fully strain relieved from the bearing system mounts. Notice that John used other plastic pieces between the end frames for this purpose.

As for being able to use Neo Magnets in this motor, let?s look at the evidence. First, I didn?t see where Mike said he was using Neos or ceramics. So, do we know what kind of magnets he used?

Second, the very first Window Motor that John worked on for weeks and Ron Cole took to NBC and got confiscated DID have Neo Magnets in it. In those days, Neo Magnets were very expensive and each magnet in that motor cost more than $300 each. The motor had six of these magnets in it and cost more than $1800, just for the magnets. So, when he didn?t get it back, John was pissed off, to say the least! That motor operated at or near ?unity? like Mike?s, and the Neo Magnets did not stop it from working.

The only drag mechanisms I have seen in John?s new set-up have to do with small current leakages through the trigger coil circuit diode. When this is disconnected, the rotor will spin in the coil for a long time, and even charge the cap through the FWB with NO DRAG that I can observe, other than bearing friction.

So, I do not see that the Neo Magnets are causing a problem. They may be, but I don?t see it.

That said, eddy currents CAN be a problem anytime you are around magnetic fields this large. Any IRON that is not rotating nearby definitely will cause eddy current drag. This is also true for large pieces of Copper. Aluminum does not seem to cause as much drag as Iron or Copper. Some of you are mounting your magnets with aluminum end brackets to hold them to the rotor. As these aluminum pieces are situated BETWEEN the magnetic field of the magnet and the magnetic field of the coil, they may cause secondary interactions which are difficult to quantify. Just be mindful of any current carrying materials that are in the magnetic field and subject to the flux changes of the system.

Also, John and I have seen some situations where aluminum nearby these systems can actually be beneficial because of delayed eddy current behavior. The bottom line is, that eddy currents can be complex and problematic in some circumstances. So, the warning is worth investigating.

A simple test to see if the Neo Magnets are causing eddy current drag in your coils is to do a simple test to see how long the rotor will spin with the magnets on the rotor in the bearings, with NO COILS mounted on the frame. Then mount the coils and spin the rotor again, making sure that the coils are not connected to any other part of the circuit. If the rotor spins for the same amount of time, then eddy currents in the copper of the coils are NOT a problem. If the rotor spins for less time, then eddy currents in the copper of the coils ARE a problem, and the Neo Magnets should be replaced.

The main idea here is: Don?t guess! Run the experiment and find out.

Unregulated, the Window Motor works equally well as a motor or a generator, as the induction principle is the same. You can see this in the video Rick put up where he and I are testing one of John?s early models. When the rotor comes up to full speed, the back EMF (reverse generated voltage) reduces the motor current to ZERO on the 5-amp meter (in reality, about 20ma). To bias the benefit toward the generator side, the motor function must be regulated and PULSED at the right time, while the generator is just harnessed to charge the cap. This remains true, no matter what kind of magnet you use.

Enough for now,

Peter