Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic

[Kator01]

Hello,

I had a look at your drawing, HomerS. Upon release of the spheres at 12 h the stings will at no time hang around so loose. They will be at all time streched by the continuously rotating cylinder. The misunderstandig you have here is the position of the rope in the slit and the direction of the rotation. One end of the slit is in permanent contact with the string up to the point the cylinder stops and has transferred its momentum to the spheres.If this has happened the spheres rotate around the centre axis whereby the rope moves along the slit to the other end of it and then the rope takes the cylinder again with it.
Measuring the transition-time along the length of the slit will give you the angle-velocity and by the total radius of the rope you will get the temporary circumference-velocity during transition-time along the length of the slit.

If you look at the hand-drawing of pequaide the cylinder is rotating counter-clockwise and the slit begins at number 1 extending somewhere along  to number 5 position. In this way the beginning of the slit is alway in contact to the rope and thus stretching it until momentum is transfered.

I can not follow your far fetched claims of loosing all energy in form of heat or elastic stretch of the steel-string at this low velocities. The elastic stretch is no energy-loss.

This is the reason why I proposed another setup in my last post. I hope I will have the time during the next 6 month to build it or pequaide accepts this for another try for himself. I still miss his comment on this.

As I understand pequaide he simply asks people to replicate and find out themselves.
You repeat the pattern I have noticed in our german discussion. You start with your basic assumption of the conservation of energy and develop your arguments from this point of view.
In this way you will never ever come to new knowledge. You should know better after reading the german booklet of Otto Stein. It is all written in there.

Regards

Kator

[pequaide]

I thought I should make diagrams to demonstrate how it really works, but I thought simulated pictures would take less time.

I put in a video tape of a hand held model to see what the positions of the spheres, that Homer proposed, really look like. I am using a cut shell to hold the spheres where they appear to be in the four frames in which the video tape shows the spheres opening.

Frames in a video tape are 1/30 of a second apart. In only three frames (3/30 of a second: in one frame the spheres are still closed) the spheres are fully open. The spheres open in 1/10 of a second.

The first simulated picture replicates the video tape frame just at the (approximate) release point.

The second simulated pictures shows that about 1/30 of a second later the sphere is just clear of the seat.  The seat has moved about its own length. This is my best guess at the second frame in the video tape.

The third simulated picture shows the sphere and string at about 45? from a tangent to the point where the string attaches to the cylinder. The seat moved about half its length. This is my best guess at the third frame in the video tape.

The fourth simulated picture shows the sphere and string at 90? from a tangent to the point where the string attaches to the cylinder. The seat moved about a fourth of its length. This is my best guess at the fourth frame in the video tape. The cylinder is stopped while the string is in the slit.

I was surprised myself how quickly the spheres stop the cylinder; I was guessing one fourth rotation. In this video tape it looks closer to one eighth.

Kator01 you have a grasp of what I am doing, and that I am asking people to replicate the experiment. I also think your ideas are fascinating, but right now I am thinking of doing more work with the mechanical arms, and trying to go to a more overhead view with the video tapes. 

[pequaide]

VGAs are pretty blurry, I will go back to 1M next time.

[Homer S.]

Hello Kator,

I agree that if the length of the string is short enough that the strings will allways be stretched by the cylinder . Sorry but I didn't know anything about the length of the strings. If the strings are longer, the behavior in the very split seconds after releasing  the spheres will be similar as stated in my drawing.

Anyway, after releasing the spheres there are acting two forces at each sphere:
1. force in tangential direction
2. force applied by the string

The resulting force will change the direction of the sphere into rotation direction. This "sphere-catching" activity needs physical work and cause the cylinder to slow down or stop its rotation, depending of the cylinder's mass and origin angular velocity, i.e. its origin momentum directly after releasing the spheres.

That's the reason why the spheres "overtake" the cylinder rotation in the slit. In this sense you are right if you state momentum of the cylinder was transferred to the spheres, however the overall momentum cannot be greater than the origin momentum with fixed spheres at the circumference of the cylinder. 

And please accept the fact that the velocitiy of cylinder's circumference and tangential speed of the spheres are equal! I'm afraid you're not aware of this fact although I have stated this several times in the German SARA-thread.

Hence the spheres are able to overtake the cylinder rotation in the slit because the cylinder rotation slowed down and not because the spheres rotation have increased! 

In the German thread you asked to post directly here in this thread if there are any questions about this setup idea. But now you state here that I better keep my arguments and assumptions under my hat. All right I will accept again your new position.

And by the way, I do not agree in any case to  the statements in the booklet of Otto Stein. His assumptions are wrong. For instance you cannot calculate complex asymmetric rotational movements by separating them into two or more single symmetric rotational movements. Or should I better unbalance all my car tires to create energy? 
Hey...das ist wirklich haneb?chener Unsinn!  Das glaubst Du doch nicht???

I can recommend a good German book: Dorn Bader Physik Oberstufe. 

That are my 2 cents regarding this issue.

@pequaide
Thank you for your pictures for better imagination. I have posted my point of few above and I'm convienced I'm right. I will check this thread about news of your break setup.  Anyway, have much fun!

Regards,
Homer

[Kator01]

Hello pequaide,

thank you very much for theses pictures. It was a bit surprising to me me but finally one can clearly see how the process works. Very good simulation. The spheres a accellerated outwards along a  90 degree arc too the final position. During this transition-phase the spin-inertia and the speed of the spheres-system increases to its maximum value and this consumes all the momentum of the cylinder.

Of course I understand that you have your own plans to follow through with further steps. I also was thinking about a mechanical arms, but then you will have less degree of freedom for the spheres to move. But I think it will work also. I would rather think of bycycle-chains if one plans to start with higher speed-tests.
But then the question remains : How do you harvest the energy gained ? This was the reason for my proposal whis can be modified  also with mechanical arms, because the gain has to be stored and I found this the simplest way to do and at the same time it will give you a direct measure of m x g x h.

Can it be done in another more simple way ? 

regards

Kator

@homerS : I wonder about your statement that Otto Steins calculation deal with unbalanced masses.
Have a look at a normal planetary gear ( (Planetengetriebe), all parts are well balanced. In the case of otto steins first Drehmotor-proposal it only has 2 planetary toothed wheels rotating around the circumference of the center toothed wheel but nevertheless balanced and without the outer toothed ring which makes up for this type of gear.This also is true for differential gear ( Differenzialgetriebe )
Believe me : it is difficult but engineers have done it. I myself had to calculate all that stuff during my engineering education for applied car-construction ( I forgot it all by now )
I simply give you another example here: During the 60`ths no none of the established engineers at BMW, Daimer etc believed it to be possible to construct a 5 cylinder-otto-motor because they believed it to be an impossible unbalanced system to build. Somewhere in  the years 1972 to 1976 ( where I graduated as a engineer ) AUDI prooved them all wrong and created this 5 cylinder engine.
Your quote "Or should I better unbalance all my car tires to create energy?  Grin " is simply a very bad example and does not fit here.