I am building a Magneto, need help with the coils...

[fleebell]

Well, first of all if you can stop a .5 hp drill with your hand either you are built like an ox or your drill is having some serious electrical problems,  Because you really shouldn't be able to do that.  with a .25 hp maybe but not a .5 hp.  Also you need to remember that your are stopping a small amount of mass in a drill but that wheel is a totally different story, There is a lot of mass there you have to stop and it's not quite the same thing.

Yes you have it more of less correct with the magnets and coils but there is no way your are going to get out more than the wheel can put out.  I mean if you only have 1 hp input your not even going to get one hp output. Simply can't be done. They are getting some unusual effects with electrical stuff but your not going to beat the laws of physics with a simple mechanical device like a wheel.   Simple friction loses would do it.  Otherwise everyone on here would be running water wheels and be happy campers because they all had a perpetual motion machine and could quit wasting their time with all the odd things they trying out now . 
What you are going to end up having to do is use a lot of small magnets and coils instead of just a dozen of so big ones that would work with the smaller alternator diameter.  You are not going to get away from the lenz forces just by using a bigger wheel. they just get spread out but they are still there.  Your right in that you will get the speed on the outside diameter with a lower rotation but thats as far as that goes.
All the rest of the normal effects will still apply. 

Lee

[twilightinsanity]

   OK man, (please note - I call everybody "man"  so do not take it in a sarcastic sense, it's more of a 70's hippy term, and not derogatory - just so you know...)

   So anyway, I'l admit to being a big manly guy, 6'5" 280 with hands like frisbees, and maybe thats why I can stop my drill. I have three drills, one .5 and two .25 models, the two smaler ones are easier to stop, so I assume that unless all of my drills are equally broken, my previous statement was true. I'm hooked up to the grid, btw, so it's not a weaker drill because of my supply. What can I say, I got muscles...

   I am reasonably familiar with the whole free energy scene. I have some ideas along those lines as well, but they are unformed ideas, and are most certainly not anything I am trying to incorporate into this particular idea. I am looking for a free lunch, granted, I'm just not looking for it in ways that conventional physics disagrees with. I truly believe that conventional physics reaches a point where it fails to describe accurately the actions of certain energies, and in fact fails in a lot of ways here and there, escpecially in chemistry, metallurgy, and in transitional energy forms.

   I also understand the losses which are incurred at every stage of any circuit. This includes the losses in the bearings, gears, and even wind drag, as well as electron resistance.
   I also know that you can't get out more than you put in (not in a mechanical system anyway, and I consider the whole thing mechanical, because a magneto is basically an electron pump, and can be considered mathematically just like a water pump or an air pump - mostly. Enough to consider it as mechanical anyway.)

   So let me use the mechanical analogy for a minute...

   We have a small bucket full of mass (water or sand or whatever kind of mass is your favorite) We have a wheel that is turning at a constant rpm and with a constant force. It can lift one small bucket per minute. BUT!  The wheel turns with so much force, that it is capable of lifting a larger bucket full of twice as much mass in the same amount of time. The larger bucket increases stress on the variables in the system, like the bearings, but this dose'nt matter because we are still getting twice as much work done in the same amount of time with the same machine.
   If my contraption is the wheel, and the magnets and coils are the buckets, then my question is how much mass can I get in my buckets before it stops my wheel.
   The answer so far has been between 375 watts (using a formula from a waterwheel site that you directed me to) and over 3 kilowatts (going by the results of an equivalent windmill, from another site you sent me to)
   Obviously I like the windmill numbers better, and I find the information on the windmill to be perfectly credible. I also thought the waterwheel site had credible info as well, so why are these two sets of numbers 1000%  different? I think it has something to do with the construction of the devices in question, and for what purpose they are used.
   I'm not disagreeing with Lenz, or Maxwell, or Newton, or You, or anybody else (except maybe the waterwheel site, due to preference), I am simply saying that if a windmill can make 3000+ watts, with 20 magnets and 15 coils at 65 Rpm, then with twice the wheel and twice the magnets and coils I should be able to make twice the watts with half the Rpm's. That comes out to 6000+ watts, assuming the resistance of the coils does not slow the wheel to below 35 Rpm's. That is correct I believe...  Right?

  Side note - Whats up? When I am on this page, logged in or not, I get KooKoo Clock audio, it is freaking me out! Does this happen because my computer is insane, or is there a checkbox someplace, or what? It's weird.

   Anyway, If I can phase it correctly I can end up with enough constant wattage to power my house, without the need for batteries or inverters. What would happen if I tried to run say a refridgerator, on 65 Hz AC, or 55 Hz ?

[fleebell]

 Well , that explains the drill    The average sized guy cannot do that with a .5 hp.

  Anyway, you are correct on increasing the magnets and coils as far as I can see but what you are misunderstanding is the torque required.  Any windmill that's only turning that slow and still putting out 3 kw would have to be a BIG one. 4-6 hp at the wind speed it is doing it at. 

I'm attaching a page of charts I have collected from all over the place that cross references some of the different info.. maybe this will explain better than I can can about the hp differences

That clock is in the sidebar on the right at the top, you can click on it and turn it off

  Build and try it, the worst thing that could happen is you only get the 3-400 watts output and you might do better. It all depends on what your torque output really equates to.   You can always build more of them if it doesn't put out as much as you want till you get enough of them that will.   Thats what I'm slowing doing, building small setups that will eventually add up together to provide the output that I want.   

[twilightinsanity]

   Thanks for pointing out the KooKoo clock - I thought I was losing it! Funny thing is, my active X controls are kinda messed up so I can't turn it off anyway! O well...

  That windmill I got my numbers from was pretty big - 22 feet, 3 - 10 ft blades and a 2 foot Gen. You know, I wonder why they dont put more blades on windmills. It seems like it would just be a good idea...  Regardless it was a giant windmill. It can be found through the links you placed in your first few posts, it's on the bottom of a page of windmills, apparently the culmination of 6 years practice by the builder.

   Those charts you posted are indeed helpfull. Thanks again.
   I'm thinking you are right about just building one and seeing what it does. That is the next step anyway, and I was thinking about making the whole thing kinda modular so that I can add more torque layers or generator layers as needed. The flat circular form of an axial magneto just begs for a modular design due to the magnet orientation.

   So, with the decision to just build one quick comes back the origonal problem...

   What kind of coils should I use? I mean, I have an idea, and some formal electronical skooling    but its been nearly ten years since I've actually built a coil... Basically I guess it will depend on the magnets and the speed at which they pass the coils, and the desired type of output, and several other things including if I hold my mouth right while im winding them...

   First consideration is whether or not there is a low drag way to do this. I think you sent me a link about something like a low drag generator, and most likely the only way to build one is to build something from a free energy site, which is fine with me in most cases. If it works - it works. However, I don't wanna break from the origonal idea and get into something that is miraculous but might not work either...

   Second consideration is whether or not to use a core in my coils, and what kind of core that should be if applicable. I saw a Tom Valone video where he described the magnetic properties of a black "river magnetite" mineral, that is a very common and useless byproduct of metal mining. Apparently there are huge piles of it dug out while mining, and it is simply discarded like any other waste dirt. Supposedly it has no back emf feild, as it completely demagnetises instantly when the power is cut from the coil. This is a pulse motor application though, and I don't know if it would benefit a Magneto...?
   I have seen mostly air core coils used, but I have also seen copper and ferrous alloys (like coat hangers) used as cores. I don't know what to think about it all...

   I'm beginning to semi-seriously consider a high efficiency generator instead of a Magneto, but I'm afraid the rpm's would kill me.

[fleebell]

Now you are getting into the headache section.  The number and size of your coils will depend mainly on the diameter of your wheel and the size of the magnets you intend to use.  It also depends on how close you can get the magnets to the coils. You want less than 1/4" (even closer if possible).  Just guestimating here as I don't know the diameter your working with but I would suggest using about #16 gage wire and try about 20-25 turns as a test coil if you are going to be using more than about 12-16 coils an magnets.  This also depends on what way it's going to be wired. Star,delta,single rectified, etc.....  That should work pretty well for a large diameter wheel but be prepared to experiment some. (will probably need more turns but that's a good starting number for a large diameter wheel)

   You will either need a metal backing behind the coils or use the black sand. I have tried both and prefer the metal sheet behind the coils but I haven't tried anything the size your working on so it might be easier for you to go with the sand in the center of them as it would take a very heavy piece of metal (plain sheet metal is not thick enough to contain the field  unless you use at least 3-4 pieces together).  The sand is pretty easy to get. just tie a strong magnet to a string and drag it in the dirt beside  just about any asphalt or gravel paved road.  I collected over a cups worth just dragging one back and forth in the sand beside the road in front of my house in about 1/2 an hour.
Just mix it up with epoxy etc to fill the center of the coils.  I would wait though until you get a coil size figured out and then make 1 coil with the sand in the middle for testing as the sand should  increase  the output once it's in the coils and you won't be able to change them after the sand is glued into the centers.  Get one right first and then the rest will be easy.

The other link I sent you was to my bobble generators.  They don't have much in the way of lenz force feedback because of the way they work.  But it will take more coils doing it that way as the individual coils on the bobble gen don't/can't  put out as much as a regular built gen's coils do.  The good part though is you can add them to the wheel as you get them made, they don't all have to be there from the first unlike a regular generator design does nor do they have to have a tight clearance as they actually need about  3/4" space between the rotor magnets and the coils to operate properly.
  It might actually be easier to use them because of that. The wheel won't have to so perfectly flat on the sides running with them. Just use more and use round magnets inside the coils or the noise of the magnets inside the coils forms will rapidly become annoying. (the original bobble gens used flat round magnets inside the coils and was very noisy when operating... I've gone to sphere shaped ones now and they are much quieter- can't hardly hear those at all.

Good luck with your project, I'm just getting started on a new project idea of my own.
a solar hot water powered generator system. - I'm calling it "the micro-tide generator"

Lee