Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..

[Nali2001]

Hi Steven,

Enjoying the show.
If you haven't seen patent 6369479 FIG 26 allready, this study can save you a lot of time and maybe some magnet money. It is a chart comparing current, separating force and magnet size for the Sumo magnet switching unit.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=1CAJAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=6369479#PPA16,M1

Regards, Larry

I like that patent, thanks.
Looks like a more direct and simple way of doing this. Also it even seems to work good with big air gaps. Gotta study this more.
Although this bike uses that motor they only talk about 80% efficiency
http://electricandhybridcars.com/index.php/pages/sumomotorcycle.html
hmm

[Nali2001]

@Nali2001

Another great video. Thanks.

I don't know how you have made the coil windings of your motor but I have been posting this patent here and there on the forum. I think it may have some relation to the motor for a better coil winding strategy.

Title: Electrical circuit for inductance conductors, transformers and motors -Patent No 4806834
URL: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get91

I was chatting with Erfinder about the motor and your videos and he said it is basically a reluctance motor with a magnet, which is super neat. You may look into reluctance motors and controllers on Google. Erfinder says the problem with points (or hall effect for that matter) is that the faster you turn the motor, the less contact time you have on the points because they are directly related to the rpm.

Based on that observation, I am thinking that as the rpm increases the motor is less and less riding on the contacts to drive the motor and more more time on the open, thus probably changing into a generator. This will depend on the rotor materials and if there is any north south magnet in the rotor since I do not know the materials. Actually the rotor has to have some magnetic affinities otherwise it would not turn.

Now if this is the case, and Jacks motor (and your current build) may actually be half motor/half generator, this may explain why Honks circuit was not operating to spec. Standard reluctance motor controllers are available on the market and may be a good option to consider.

Here are some links;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reluctance_motor
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?nodeId=02nQXGrrlPb02R

Looking at your build, I am also thinking that the valve may be a good method to produce a drive motor I had posted way back on the forum located here: (Look at the last image animation).

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2707.msg45214.html#msg45214

If such a valve can generate enough magnetic strength to propel a metal weight towards the left, this may be a good avenue to make a drive motor with much more torque potential using gravity. Such a drive motor would do away with BEMF and it would be simpler to capture the coil flyback since each coil would be off for a longer portion of the cycle.

Anyways, keep up the good work.

Hi there Wattsup,
My coils are about 325 wraps of 1mm wire. With an experimantal tap at about 200 wraps.
Nice patent, will look into this one further.
Yes Erfinder is right it is a reluctance motor with magnets. I have been working with reluctance motors for a while now. They have a few interesting behaviors, but are way harder to make then any other type of motor. Plus the controller in commercial types gets somewhat complicated. I don't use contact points or hall-effects. Just a opto and a driving circuit with pwm and recovery.
Yes I am aware that there could be some generator action going on. It all depends on how much field the rotor caries along but from my tests I have come to the believe that the hysteresis curve is not all that square. And these grain aligned C cores drop fields like mad. Way better then normal transformer steel. But like Jack stated once you 'send out' the field of the magnet it will return once you switch off. Which means there should be induction in the switching coil. Lots of stuff happening in this setup.
Reluctance motors in a sense already do away with back emf. Since they are not working with 'external' magnetic fields like a dc motor does. although the rotor of the reluctance motor does carry some residual magnetism I'm sure.

Thanks for the input,
Steven

[LarryC]

I like that patent, thanks.
Looks like a more direct and simple way of doing this. Also it even seems to work good with big air gaps. Gotta study this more.
Although this bike uses that motor they only talk about 80% efficiency
http://electricandhybridcars.com/index.php/pages/sumomotorcycle.html

Yes it is 80%, but they base that on how much of the electrical energy input, ends up being used as motor power. It does not include what is allready present and being switched. It does take more energy to switch, then just to create.

Sorry, I don't remember where I read about this, but that's my understanding. Besides, what business would dare say 180%. 

Regards, Larry

[ceres]

Hello all, hello Nali,

Thank you Nali for your great job. Seldom you see clear text and video with good light, no trembling, like in yours. These are great videos to help to get things going in higher gear. I like the simplicity of your motor's construction, especially fit for experimentation. This is what we need now. Getting things neat, beautiful and compact is for the design - only make it beautiful - people, they are of no use. Let us get to the core of the business as soon as possible at lowest cost possible.

I downloaded the two videos. The smallest version is working good, about 16 Mb, the motorvalvetest is about 1,9 Mb and gives only one text slide. What am I doing wrong?

Wondering about the high current draw, the apparently not so high torque in the motor. Also wondering why the addition of magnets does not seem to make such a great difference. I think it is not a matter of adding more valves or the like. It should be possible to get your ingenious design better than it is now already by smarter switching, smarter coil design (see the excellent Earl Koenig patent e.g. suggested in the messages above), smarter ..... whatever other options you have.

Could this motor coil permanent magnet behaviour in the video be explained by an unwanted interaction between electromagnetic coil response to switching, thus counteracting added permanent magnets flux?
Could it be explained by the lack of harnessing these spiked electromagnetic responses in the hybrid magnet system?
Is the coil interacting with the permanent magnet in an unknown way and thus waisting energy and lowering performance?
Would Jack's statement about using the magnetic valve also as a generator be a road to explanation of the video's observations and would that be a road to improvement?
What is the difference (e.g. in switching) between Nali's approach and Jack's?

May I suggest to have a look at US6369479 patent, inventor a.o. Sanshiro Ogino, hybrid magnet system, electromagnet and permanent magnet combined.
May I suggest to have a look at the patents graphs on page 6 and page 18. The bigger the gap, the bigger the interacting force??!! These seem to be counter intuitive experimental data.
In the graphs you will find definitely an input power difference, less power for the hybrid case in comparison with the electromagnet case to get the same interacting force.
So, definitely room for lowering electrical power put in at the same mechanical power performance put out, I would say.

Which point am I missing?
So, what may be the essential point for improvement of the Nali configuration?
I am just wondering, I just cannot explain essential things.
Anybody suggestions?

I wish excellent, speedy health to Jack, good experimental, construction and building luck to us all, dollars for Jack to get his patent bills payed.

Ceres

[Elisha]

Hi Friends.  Jack, Steve, Carl, Wattup, etc

I contact to Randall from Electronic Light, Trying to make a budget to the controller for Jack,  This will accelerate the development of Jack Motor, This are good news.   With a budget we can make a donation plan to pay the controller

This is the response, What you Think that I need to replay? 


>>Hello,
>>I will need more information about the motor. Is there a website for the motor manufacturer with a specification?
>>best regards,

>>Randall
>>Randall A. Shaffer, President
>>Electronic Light, Inc.
>>5820 Cinnamon Drive
>>Prescott, AZ 86305-3876
www.electronic-light.com

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: @electronic-light.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Please make a budget


Hi

We need a budget for a controller for a  permanent magnet DC motor, This motor have 3 valves , each valve work with  150V DC,  0,8 Amper continuos current, 2 Amper peak.

The voltage is trigger on off from an opto coupler in the motor, for 500 to 3000 revolution per minute.    The output of the controller need to have protection of the motor voltage running generation of 350V added to the 150 VDC of the input and BEMF short voltage peak of  -1500V.

The running dynamics of the motor are: when 150 VDC is applied to the  input, the motor star to turn, then the voltage start to going up to 450V, the voltage increase come from the motor inside not from the power source.

We want to control the off time before the off time indicated by the opto coupler.

Please make a budget to make the controller for us.
Thanks.