Energy from Still Air

[Dingus Mungus]

I need you to know that I'm not trying to say this doesn't work, but I'm noticing only partial data and that why I'm asking the tough questions. Thank you for replying though.

Water is delivered to a great height.  The energy required is mgh.

That equation is for unrestricted output, but if the output involes restriction... AKA an expansion valve or one way check valves. You need to take the mechanical pressure being created in to account as work done as well. So that equation is incomplete in refrence to your device.

The water goes up as part of the air+water fluid.  If we do a careful calculation and controlled experiment on the input pump energy (a one-tenth horse power air pump was used in our demonstration in Dec 2004), we would find that it could not account for the amount of energy required for the water delivered to the greater height (four floors.)

Four stories high doesn't mean anything untill we know the diam of the pipe carrying the fluid, or the output in GPM or something similar. As you can imagine moving liquid up four stories in a 1/8" tube can be done with the pressure your lungs can generate, but a 3" in diam tube requires a lot more PSI. Also if you're pumping it up four stories, but its only escaping the tube at < 1 LPM, then as you can imagine it would be quite inefficent. So as you are probably begining to understand, most of the data you've posted is incomplete to the point where I can not calculate anything about its efficiency.

If the air pump did not provide all that energy, where does the extra energy come from?  (Answer: Energy from Still Air)

What energy? You put in electrical power and got out mechanical power. To further my point, I don't even know how much power you put in. All you've said was 1/10 horse motor, but no explanation of actual power comsuption. On a purely physics level undestanding a 1/10 horse is roughly 75 watts. 75watts in 100% efficient evriornment will move .68 liters up 11 meters every second. As you can see I need to know your flow rate to calculate any efficiency rating. Then we can calculate how much of the energy was used to move the water, and how much of it was converted to losses.

The same or similar experiments have been repeated dozens of times in Hong Kong, Shenzhen, Beijing and other parts of China.  I believe Professor Wu also did it at Harvard and MIT Universities.  Mr. Raymond Ting in Hong Kong has a working demonstration in his factory.  That device could deliver water to 14 floors.

Unless its more than 40% efficent, than I know of a dozen pumps on the market capable of pumping water to higher floors. So that claim means very little at this point. Too much missing data like flow rate and power consumtion.

Now let us focus on the heat side.  We measured the air temperature at the bottom floor and at the top floor when there were no delivery of water.  There were no appreciable difference.  We then put our thermometer at the outlet at the top where the air+water fluid came out.  The temperature dropped by a few degrees.

But did you notice the pressurized vessel that carries the water went up a few degrees? I'm not debating the output air can be dropped in temperature, but you're missing the point that this effect is only realized through prssure which generates heat as a byproduct in the HPZ.

The experiment is extremely easy to do and repeat.  I can specify the exact beach pump, the size of the tubes, the number and spacing of the one-way valves, etc. if you are interested in repeating.  I can ask Mr. Ting to provide the pictures of every component etc.

That would be great. The more eleborate the data set, the more exact our analysis and replication. Actually if he'd be interested in coming to the forum to explain the devices abilities with the missing data, then I could quickly determine CoP and or efficiency.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, most time people just asssume I'm trying to "discredit" them, when in reality its just the opposite. I need that data to proove what you're saying is true. I would prefer that you be correct, but I won't just blindly accept it without crunching the numbers myself or seeing it in action.

~Dingus Mungus

[Paul-R]

What about a sterling cycle engine?
Also, in your first post, you should mention temperature.
This is most central to all thermodynamics.
Paul.

[ltseung888]

Dear Dingus Mungus,

I would like to point out my situation and limitations.  I have a BSc in Physics and a MSc in Aeronautics from Western Universities.  I am retired and do not have any huge financial backing.  However, I am a member of the Hong Kong Inventor Association.  I can motivate other members to help in the experiments.  I no longer do any experiments myself.  The last attempt in operating the electric drill almost blinded me.

Lee Cheung Kin, the co-patent inventor and owner, is over 72 tears old.  He was one of the first Russia trained Chinese Rocket Engineers.  He has excellent connections with many Chinese Technical Officials.  Thus we had visits to the top Chinese Universities and the China Patent Office.  His last  experimental attempt was wracking a USD$500 toy helicopter totally in its maiden flight.

Please see our draft press release in
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2482.msg37417.html#msg37417

We treat energy from air as an indirect technique of extracting energy from gravity.  We actively worked on it for a few weeks in 2004.  Then Lee discovered the secret of extracting (Lead Out) energy from gravity via the pulsed pendulum.  I extended it to vibrations and rotations.  The theory was later expanded to electron motion energy that includes magnetic, electric and electromagnetic. 

We gave the Energy from Air research responsibilities to Mr. Raymond Ting after applying for China Patents.  Mr. Ting took it up and won a Silver Award in one of the recent Invention Shows in 2006 in China.  He is working with an environmental group to further this research.  I believe the latest prototype from him uses 1 inch pipies.

He does not read or write English.  Thus there will be delay in translating his information.  Please be patient and tolerate the delays.

You can read the above draft press release article meanwhile.  Please note that we are more interested in removing the Law of Conservation of Energy as a Roadblock for OU inventions.  We believe the Lee-Tseung Lead Out theory will be the guiding light for almost all OU inventions.

[Dingus Mungus]

Thank you again for your prompt reply...

I'm pleased to hear that there are existing functional prototypes and that they have been publicly demonstrated. Since you are a educated engineer I now know that you must fully understand why those questions I asked are vital to our understanding of the devices operation. I can appriciate the language barrier though as I can only speak english myself. Can you please continue to post any other technical details and or test data you ecounter or translate? Much of the required information is still missing. I want to try and understand the device, and in some thought experiments I realized perhaps the heat and expansion works in an almost gradient effect between each set of check valves conveting the heat in to kinetic velocity (spray). Altho it still doesn't seem like a very sound theory in my mind... I hope you will return with more complete data and diagrams soon, so that our fellow members can attempt replication and verification of the device and any observed anomolous effects. Thank you for continuing to take the time to attempt answering my questions.

I hope we hear from you,
~Dingus Mungus

P.S. Just a list of numbers you may want to request about the device:
-water/air output rates
-RMS power consumption
+output hieght
+inner diam of output pipe
-measured temperature differential

Thanks again!

[Dingus Mungus]

Hmmmm... I was just thinking about the numbers I do have, and I calculated that a pipe with a 1"id that is 36 feet tall, will hold a volume of roughly 339.3 cubic inches or 12.25 psi of back pressure. Are you sure this perticular 1"x432" pipe was compressed with a 1/10 horse electric pump? I'll have to try out some experiments soon with capilary expansion in this fasion. I'm still quite skeptical about the heat decrease of the equation, but I'm curious to see how it loads the compessor differently when compared to a normal section pvc pipe. Is there a minimum height or number of divisions before the effects are observable?

Thanks again,
~Dingus Mungus

Wow... I may have just understood the concept. Each valved division may act like a HPZ and LPZ hybrid with check valves acting as expansion valves aka capillaries. It'll be a few months before I'll have the room to test this, but I will investigate what I can based on what you've told me so far.