The Lee-Tseung Lead Out Theory

[Rosphere]

Excellent work, Rosphere!
I refer mostly to the chart, which is eloquent for why there is no subject to be seriously discussed into this thread.

Thank you. 

After accepting that 'Hori energy' equation is wrong, notice that the values in the chart makes no physical sense. The computed ratio means total energy spent divided by the energy that goes into vertical lift (increase in potential energy). No physical significance whatsoever. No overunity either, just misuse of equations.

But if one reverses the ratio presented in the chart, now the new values would mean potential energy gained versus total energy spent. This may be useable for mental exercises. So, as example let?s take the angle =9.48. One has to spend 1.628 Joule to bring the weight from vertical to that angle, by pulling with a CONSTANT force of 9.882 Newton. By the end of the movement he finds that only 0.819 Joule were actually used for lifting the weight (this amount goes into potential energy). Well?! Is some energy being lost?! Where did the other half of the energy go?! The answer is very simple: it went into kinetic energy. And the pendulum will further move up by itself due to its stored kinetic energy.

Note the word ?constant? above written in capitals. It is important because the simple equations Mr. Tseung uses are no longer valid if the force is not kept constant. Because of that initial assumption already made, any distractions derived from pulsed forces and similar ?improvements of theory? can not be discussed under the above mathematical treatment (which, I must stress again, it is physically wrong.). But the required mathematical analysis never came and I suspect it will never do.

Hope I made myself clear,
Tinu

I recall some of what I had learned back in college; statics, dynamics, kinetic energy, and potential energy.  Although his equations and his numbers in slide 3 did match-up to my results, mostly, I should not have moved on to slide 4 until I was comfortable with the origin of his equations.

Regarding my chart: the Fx and Fy equations are mine, based on a static system at each angle.  (I did the static Free Body Diagram in my head looking at slide 2.)  As you can see, Fx is not constant.  We can imagine holding a suspended mass off vertical with our finger; it does not require much force at small angles; we feel very little pressure.  At larger angles, the horizontal force required to hold the mass off vertical is noticeably higher and more painful on the finger.  (Notice I did not write, "push," or, "move," but, "hold."  Fx and Fy are static forces in my chart.)  Our experience jibes with the numbers in my Fx column.

I must admit, I did not make a F.B.D and sum all of the forces and moments to equal m*a and I*alpha.  Although I did not have a warm-fuzzy about the validity of the horizontal and vertical energy equations, I did not look them up as you appear to have done.

I can not agree with you either, at this point, because I have not dug into it for myself.  However, whatever cracks may exist in slide 3 seem to grow into caverns reaching out to slide 4.  And these caverns hearken back to my insecurities about slide 3, where I suspect that you may be right about the validity of the Cartesian separation of this "pulse" force.

In order to do any dynamic analysis we need more information about this pulse force and how it is applied.  Is it applied by an elastic collision at a=0?  (This sounds like what is meant by, "pulse.")

Assuming that it is an elastic collision at a=0, what happens to this Lead Out energy when the angle peaks and then returns to a=0; is it Lead Back In energy?  If the Lead Out energy is Lead Back In then how can we exercise any claim upon it to do our bidding?

It must be Lead Back In because swing sets are not banned from playgrounds, (what would happen to Johnny returning with 50% more energy at each pass?)

If this pendulum is set into motion and we wish to make charts showing energy movement between the system and the environment then we need to be clear about what is happening at what time and define our cycle.  Splitting the motion up into its two Cartesian parts and saying, "then this happens with one of them," seems odd.

I can not buy into slide 4 at this time without more details.  The jury is still out on slide 3. 

On the other hand, I am not one to throw the baby out with the bath water.  Perhaps this pendulum example was hastily put together and may not lend itself well to explain this Lead Out theory.

Rosphere--break time

[utilitarian]

(9)   When we examine the ?machine elements? in a simple pendulum, we can easily see that the increased tension of the String is responsible in lifting the Weight.  This is the Lead Out Energy.

You are making the high school mistake of misinterpreting the nature of a tension force.  Yes, tension force exists when you are pulling an object, and in that situation, the tension force is responsible for moving whatever weight you are moving.

In your example, the tension of the string has nothing to do with lifting the weight, because no one is pulling the string to get the weight to move.  The weight is being lifted because someone pushed on it.  The string is responsible for the vector, that is all.  Had the string not been there, the object would just cruise off into space until it falls or is captured and abducted by the CIA or the Like.  Either way, the energy in the overall system would not change.

Lawrence, I suggest you whip out the old Beginning Physics and look at the chapter on ropes and pullies.

[ltseung888]

(9)   When we examine the ?machine elements? in a simple pendulum, we can easily see that the increased tension of the String is responsible in lifting the Weight.  This is the Lead Out Energy.

You are making the high school mistake of misinterpreting the nature of a tension force.  Yes, tension force exists when you are pulling an object, and in that situation, the tension force is responsible for moving whatever weight you are moving.

In your example, the tension of the string has nothing to do with lifting the weight, because no one is pulling the string to get the weight to move. 

*** In Physics, gravity can be the equivalent of a person pulling. ***

The weight is being lifted because someone pushed on it.  The string is responsible for the vector, that is all.  Had the string not been there, the object would just cruise off into space until it falls or is captured and abducted by the CIA or the Like.  Either way, the energy in the overall system would not change.

Lawrence, I suggest you whip out the old Beginning Physics and look at the chapter on ropes and pullies.

Dear utilitarian,

Let us focus on Physics and forget the Insult Training.  In Physics, there is a force (Tension of the String) and a vertical displacement (Pendulum lifted upwards).  The Tension of the String can be resolved into vertical and horizontal components.

The vertical component of the Tension of the String has done work.
Work = force x displacement (Vector Mathematics)
Vertical Work  = Vertical Component of Tension of String x raised height

I am sure this is Physics.  Work has been done by the Tension of the String.

Or Energy has been supplied by the String.  Where does the String get its Energy - partly from the horizontal pull and partly from gravity.  Gravitational Energy is Lead Out and stored into the pendulum system!!!

Lawrence Tseung
Let us focus on Physics.

[utilitarian]

Dear utilitarian,

Let us focus on Physics and forget the Insult Training.  In Physics, there is a force (Tension of the String) and a vertical displacement (Pendulum lifted upwards).  The Tension of the String can be resolved into vertical and horizontal components.

The vertical component of the Tension of the String has done work.
Work = force x displacement (Vector Mathematics)
Vertical Work  = Vertical Component of Tension of String x raised height

I am sure this is Physics.  Work has been done by the Tension of the String.

Or Energy has been supplied by the String.  Where does the String get its Energy - partly from the horizontal pull and partly from gravity.  Gravitational Energy is Lead Out and stored into the pendulum system!!!

Lawrence Tseung
Let us focus on Physics.

This is nuts, and I cannot believe I am bumping your retarded thread to post a response.  The only energy the string has in your experiment is gravitational potential energy.  That is, if the CIA or the Like were to cut the string, it would fall to the ground.  I suspect you are talking about something else.

This is so basic.  A pendulum is simple harmonic motion.  There is constant exchange between potential and kinetic energy, all originating from the intial push.  The string does not factor into it, except to direct the motion.

This is the craziest thing I have ever heard of, and easily disproven.  Just give a swinging bob a precisely measured push on the way down.  Then measure how high it gets before it changes direction.  If the increase in height is more than what can be accounted for by the single push, you have overunity.  If not, shut up about this and never mention this nonesense again.

I wager you have never performed this simple experiment.  If you have, show us a video or tell us where a video of such an experiment can be observed, and then we will all be converts to Lead Out.  Until then, it is all talk.  You are very good at talk, but not proof.

[Pirate88179]

Ms. Forever, the very pretty Chinese woman, does his experiments for him.  There is a video of her on this topic in an earlier post.

Bill