Over Unity NOT Achieved!!!

[oouthere]

Hiya Wattsup,

The digital meters are calibrated to average to voltages using a 60hz signal.  So if anything other than 60hz is used then it distorts the data because one of the fixed formula values is incorrect.

When I placed 2 120VAC bulbs in series and they did not light to full brightness, this proved my meters are not measuring correctly.

Now I'm doubting the prony brake as well due to the digital weight scale.  If there is even the slightest sticking point, it may be using this as the actual displayed output.  Let's say you have your 60 ounces of ft/torque at only 1/10 of the revolution it measures this and the rest of the revolution is only 20 ounces, this will completely throw off the measurement.  A prony brake consisting of a mechanical spring or weight scale would be more evidential since this would be a mechanical averaging and not a locking in on the highest weight in a given time of samples.

Rich

[gyulasun]

Hi Rich,

I think Wattsup has right in the RPMs that 3600RPM=60Hz and 3000RPM=50Hz.  I "managed" to frighten you with my previous letter where I mentioned the differing frequency measurement problem. In fact it cannot be a big, only a negligible error when your estimated RPM is in between 50 and 60Hz (you mentioned 3200-3300RPM).  And because your alternator is tuned to resonance the voltage and current should be pretty sinusoidal, your measuring instruments must handle them with acceptable precision.  Sorry for this.

I think it would be wise to go over your setup and discuss how you hooked up the motors.

So you run the prime mover with 120VAC 60Hz single phase and the current draw is 5.4A, right? This is the best achieable minimum current draw possible, right?

You have 1:1 (direct)  connection between the prime mover shaft and the alternator shaft, right?

Your alternator is tuned to resonance with a cap bank and you measured an unloaded 420V AC voltage on the capacitor (or the same voltage on the appropiate output coil of your motor because the cap and the coil are in parallel) and you measured (I assume with a current clamp meter or with AC amp meter) 8.7A current which circulates in the parallel resonant circuit the motor coil and the cap bank constitute, right?

You inserted your load in series with the cap bank as you wrote elsewhere and the AC voltage dropped to 274V from the unloaded case of 420V and current also dropped to 5.22A from the unloaded case of 8.7A, right?

Now let's stop a little at this point:  you understand why these voltage and current drops occured in your alternator circuit?

Put it very simple:  the quality factor or figure of merit of you parallel resonant output circuit has been decreased the moment you inserted the load into and inside the resonant circuit.
The load (your 1000W lamp or the cooktop or whatever) appears in SERIES with the copper resistance of the motor coil(s) and increase it, so the resonant current inside the resonant circuit has to go lower.   

You may ask why the unloaded circulating current inside the resonant circuit is 'only' 8.7A?
Because your copper loss in the 5HP motor coils defines it!  This is why I tried to suggest for you in my previous mail to place the 7.5HP motor for the alternator because it probably has less copper loss, hence the circulating resonant current could be higher than 8.7A and although that value will be lowered by your inserted load later, it could allow more output power to appear in the load.

The way you connected the load or in other words you inserted the load into a parallel resonant circuit is your solution, I cannot recall such energy extraction suggested by Hector or by others in Rotoverter discussions, maybe I am mistaken here?

I think this way of taking power out from a parallel resonant circuit (ie. from an alternator tuned to resonance by a capacitor) would be more successful only if you could find an unloaded resonant condition where the circulating AC current  is the higher the better ie. in range of over 15-20A at least. This would mean a motor with very low inherent copper loss to find.

Regards
Gyula

PS: Does your Baldor 5HP motor have 3 coils or 6 coils?  See what I mean: page 24 of this file:
http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/RE-OU-v6_1.pdf   If it has 6, you could wire it lower output voltage hence bigger circulating current.  OR if you are aware of this, then sorry...

[oouthere]

Hi Gyula,

The frequency difference is greater as the PM is high speed (3450 rpm) and the alternator is low speed (1770 rpm) which is the optimal set-up according to the RV documentation.  Since this is a 1:1 coupling the frequency of the alternator is nearly twice what it would normally be.  IMO, the o'scope is going to be the only accurate form of measurement for the frequency and voltage.  I believe the amp meter will be ok regardless of frequency or voltage type (i.e. ac or dc).

You didn't frighten me in the letter but the evidence is in the bulb brightness, it simply is not there.  I plugged into the wall for a comparison brightness of the bulbs and this is unquestionable.  I have a mini o'scope but I believe it only goes to 20V and it's been ages since I've used it.

I'd love to see this work but at the same time when the lights go out from a storm I'd like to have something that works.  Honesty has to be the highest factor in our observations and report what we have done.  Only in this way can we focus on the correct solution to our problem of energy slavery.

Even thinking of the dc generator tests holds true.  If a pulsed dc was being measured and the pulse was only 1/5 of the full duty cycle then those measurements are way off as well.  The o'scope has to be used in all measurements imo.

You are correct on all of your observations except I did not mention I retuned the system after the load was inserted and those were the highest measurements attainable.  I tried the cook top as I knew (thought I knew) the voltage was to high and elements may burn.  I also knew I needed the closest load to a short that was possible in order to extract the most energy according to previous information.  But I think the higher the voltage is driven with a change in frequency the more inaccurate the DVMs become.

The Baldor has 6 coils and is wired for 240 from the 240/480 option.  The 7.5hp would be driven to slow imo to produce useable power as it would wired for 240VAC and driven at less than 1/2 of it's required frequency for standard usage.

Thanks guys, if you have any ideas I'm more than willing to try them within reason.

Rich

[wattsup]

@oouthere

If the PM is 3450 rpm and the alt is 1750, I think what is happenning is your alt is losing power by turning too fast, believe or not. There is not enough time for the magnetic drag to sweep accross the stator windings.

I have done this before. Just put a light reostat (dimmer switch) in series on the T1 of the PM and lower the rpm of the PM. Otherwise you will have to get a gear system to go 2:1 ratio from the PM to alt which will open a whole new can of worms. A reostat is the cheapest solution.

Also, if you can give us a reference document, page of the diagram of the alt/cap connections this would help. I am just wondering if your cap should be in series and not in parrallel to the load.

[oouthere]

  Hiya Wattsup,

If you go to page 31, the first graphic diagram is my alternator set-up, except only on one leg as they recommend for initial testing.  If my alternator is being over driven with greater losses then this would go further in proving the information is incorrect from panacea and this probably should not be pursued further.  Since these motors try to synchronize with the grid frequency they cannot be rpm controlled by a pot as this will only cause a decrease in shaft power and cause it stall if it gets too much slippage.

http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/RE-OU-v6_1.pdf