Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor

[hartiberlin]

Hmm,I am puzzled and mixed up now...
Does an acid have more H+ ions than its Minus ions ?

and
Does a Base have more OH- ions than Positive H+ ions ?

Yes to both. The acid disassociates almost completely as in the case of hydrochloric acid (strong acid):
HCl --> H⁺ + Cl^- this automatically gives an excess of H⁺ ions in the aqueous solution. The only other compound the hydrogen ion has to bond with in the aqueous solution is the water molecule in this way: H₂O + H⁺ <--> H₃O⁺.

The base dissociates as well as with sodium hydroxide (strong base). NaOH --> Na⁺ + OH^-

This automatically gives an excess of OH^- ions in the aqueous solution. Since water by itself has a small dissociation constant it also dissociates naturally (very small concentration in normal water)

H₂O <--> H⁺ + OH^-.

So the excess OH^- ions in the base solution would push the equilibrium to the water side.   This should give you what you are looking for.

I am just not sure if the Na⁺ concentration of ions in the basic solution and the Cl^-in the acid solution would somehow alter the potential for making a current. Maybe this would be the reason it wouldn't work? I am not sure.

Hi ResinRat and All,

I did yeasterday an experiment with 25 % vinegar acid in one drinking glas with a graphite rod
in there and in a second drinking glas NaOH solution from a lye pipe cleaner with also a graphite rod
in there as the second electrode.

If you connect the 2 drinking glasses with a soaked paper saltwater "bridge" made from paper
towel soaked into saltwater, then you will get a voltage onto
the 2 graphite rods of about 0.1 Volts.
If I replaced the saltwater soaked paper towel with an alufoil
bridge touching in the first glas the acid and in the other
glas the NaOH solution base,
the voltage was about 0.2 Volts, but the short circuit current was quite low,
in the range of only 50 mikroamps, not very useful.

So as a base or acid solution is still
neutral all in all in its own charge, this does not work.
So we really need ionic liquids, where the liquid already is "charged".

So we need 2 ionic liquids, one charged positively and one charged negatively
to get a good fuel cell.

Regards, Stefan.

[sm0ky2]

the ionic fluid is a specialized liquid that "accepts" oins very easily.

the charge is applied with an electric current. and is already at about a 2% effeciency.

meaning 98% of the electricity used was wasted in the charging process.
if you were to find a way to convert ALL of the ion-pairs in both fluids back into electricity you would only get back 2% of the energy required to energize the fluids.

this stuff was designed more for experimental purposes than as an economically viable medium for energy transfer.

[ResinRat2]

Hi Stefan,

I was looking back on this and I wonder if the use of powerful magnets could help separate the charges. I am thinking of a positive side of one magnet exposed on one side of a container and the negative side of another magnet exposed on the other side of the container. This should concentrate the charges on opposite sides of the container. This would also repel like charges to further segregate the ions.

Would this be enough to generate a current directly from the liquid? In this case I am thinking of any liquid that separates completely, as say an NaOH or KOH solution. I don't happen to have any powerful magnets to try this with, and I also don't have the carbon rods either; but I think you can see what I am getting at.

NaOH ---> Na⁺ + OH^- solution.

Na⁺ on one side of the container and OH^- ions on the other side of the container.

No salt bridge needed, all in the same container.

Just an idea.

[Pontifex]

Does anyone find their paper:

"Flexible Energy Storage Devices Based on Nanocomposite Paper"

anywhere on the net and can post it here ?
Many thanks.

Flexible energy storage devices based on nanocomposite paper

Victor L. Pushparaj *, Manikoth M. Shaijumon *, Ashavani Kumar *, Saravanababu Murugesan , Lijie Ci *, Robert Vajtai, Robert J. Linhardt, Omkaram Nalamasu *, and Pulickel M. Ajayan *

Departments of *Materials Science and Engineering and Chemical and Biological Engineering, and Center for Biotechnology and Interdisciplinary Studies, Rensselaer Nanotechnology Center; Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY 12180

Communicated by Mildred S. Dresselhaus, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA, July 11, 2007 (received for review February 23, 2007)

=> see attachment!

[hansvonlieven]

G'day all,

Dave, do you mean an arrangement like this one below?

Hans von Lieven