Being Decent To Each Other

[shruggedatlas]

I think Linda expressed it most eloquently a few posts back, more so than I ever could have.  I have one suggestion to those eagerly proclaiming new discoveries or conspiracy theories - read Richard Feynman, my great hero and the person who got me reading about physics and science in general.  I particularly found his writings about the Challenger disaster both informative and entertaining.  He was one of the investigators and the person primarily responsible for figuring out that it was the O-rings that were the problem.  The book is called What Do You Care What Other People Think?: Further Adventures of a Curious Character, and here is a link:

http://www.amazon.com/What-Care-Other-People-Think/dp/0393320928/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194842326&sr=8-2

The thing I really got out of him is the methodical way in which he reasons and arrives at an answer.  He has no tolerance for fancy unsubstantiated claims.  It was really mind opening to me and gave me a respect for science (not my profession) that I do not see in other fields.  As Carl Sagan said:

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."

So, let's not treat science like politics or religion, eh?

[linda933]

What a shame, I never attacked anyone personally in this post it was nothing more than an attempt to address what I feel alot of people here would like to see, That is just simply to treat others in a more civil fashion. Sence the post has generated basicly no responce in favor of this I take it business will continue as usual.
I won't be posting here any longer. Nor bother to respond on any personal attacks on me.
I wish you all the best.
BIll

Gee Whiz, Bill...nobody is attacking you!  Everyone agrees!  The point is simple:  Make the clear distinction between personal attacks and scientific query.  Don't respond to scientific query with personal attacks!  Do respond to personal attacks with scientific query!

Are you really so thin-skinned and delicate that you feel you must leave here and never post again because people like to argue and you perceive argument as a personal attack?  You can't do good science without being able to stand some good hard skeptical questions.  

I thought you were attacking me by saying I was Humbugger.  What was the purpose of that if not to insult, denigrate, attempt to have me banned...whatever.  Just the sort of thing you say you are against!  It's not "decent" to make accusations of a personal nature such as that, you see my point?

My God, man, don't be such a baby!  People will argue and people will insult each other sometimes. Especially in a "research forum" where 90% of the participants appear to either reject or know better than all of the scientific community yet they cannot make a proper electrical measurement or basic calculation without enormous errors or discuss matters of energy without deep confusion between basic terms and essential relationships!  

When these same people make pompous, arrogant, unfounded and totally false claims, they DEMAND CORRECTION from anyone who can see the error!  My point is that, no matter how gently this pointing out of the errors may be, those who are ego-attached to their incorrect claims, epecially if they have a following of encouragers/replicators, will almost always resort to vicious personal attacks against the messenger, especially when he or she is dead right and blows their whole theory to shreds!  Science!

If your desire is to eliminate that sort of personal attack (usually against skeptics), then my suggestion is to try to encourage people to do the critical thinking and the basic science well before they invest huge amounts of time, effort and money and before they gain a large following of replicators!  

The other suggestion is simply that too many who are involved (such as you, apparently) are so thin-skinned and hyper-sensitive to any criticism, questioning or argument that they see anything short of glowing praise and eager total belief as a personal insult!  Get over it!  If you have something that is worthwhile and valid to share, it will be known as such in the end, especially if it meets with skepticism and endures!  

Don't run away thinking you've been insulted here, Bill!  You started a good thread and a good discussion has ensued.  All I and the others are doing is trying to communicate why we think the insults happen so often and pointing out examples.  You should be proud to have stimulated and contributed to this discussion.  Take your lumps, man!  We all screw up at times.  We all have to laugh at ourselves every now and then and remember that none of us is totally innocent here!

Linda

[linda933]

As Carl Sagan said:

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."

So, let's not treat science like politics or religion, eh? 

That is absolutely the best quotation on the entire forum, ever.  Thank you ShruggedAtlas and Carl Sagan.  I am also a fan of Feynman's work and writings. 

I am certain that most of the people here that get into personal attacks simply do not understand that basic idea of science so well stated by Sagan.  That's why science has driven technology so far so fast!  Bad ideas that prove untrue and unworkable are dropped!  Arguments that stay on track between learned people in science end in an improved understanding; not more fog and a spewing of bitter insults or banning of participants! 

There is no encouragement for beating dead horses into eternity nor for random experimentation based purely on hope and altruism.  Scientific research is all about trying every known way to knock down proposed theories and build only on solid ground.  That's why it works!  Where this forum's content and paths differ from scientific research is where the personal insults arise.

Linda

[hansvonlieven]

It's not about agreeing with someone. It's about impudence in pushing wrong ideas as truth which must not be allowed. Science is not a democracy. Not everything goes in Science. It is intrinsically intolerant and whoever abuses it must bear the consequences.

Ave Omnibus ignorami te salutamus.

(Translation:  "Hail Omnibus, we the ignorant salute you" ) with apologies to Roman gladiators.

Hans von Lieven

[linda933]

You see?  Hans knows the proper way to do insults.  Polite overstated sarcasm, in Latin.  See how much more "decent" that sounds compared to Omnibus' frequent (incessant?) use of pointed, hurtful terms such as idiot, incompetent, ignorant, etc. for those who ask him to explain the absolute proof that SMOT violates CoE and produces free energy? 

Night, All...

and Hans...I'll see you in my dreams, you handsome devil you!