Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??

[CLaNZeR]

Ummm just realised I have not checked the FTP site for a week that I setup for AL.

This was his reply a couple of weeks ago when I requested another Video. So we still might get something.

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Alsetalokin I am going to ask this and I feel that I have not hassled you at all over the last couple of weeks with requests or any of that other bullshit that has been floating around aimed at you.

After working 24/7 for the last 2 weeks in trying to get close to your Rig I want to request another video showing the spin up, the AGW latch and the acceleration that was shown in the first video, but that is as clear as the one you sent yesterday showing the Strobe effect.

I know you are pissed off with people trying to get you to prove this stuff over and over again and I really do not blame you after some of the remarks and damm right rudeness that I have read from certain people, if I was you I would probably also tell the world to PISS OFF.
I have had a little taste of it from the emails off the YouTube videos I have published and YEP it is amasing how many weirdo's are out there with no manners, not too mention respect for peoples Free Will to experiement with this stuff.

I am 90% sure you will not respond to this post, but that is not a problem, but my time playing with this is coming to a end because of real life stuff needing attention and time to jump boat as such. Would be great to get a result and backup the weird effect you have witnessed if nothing else.

I am not patronising your intelligence by the wording of my post above and if it sounds like it then I appologise now, just saying how it is.

Cheers

Sean.
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AL's reply was:

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Hey CLaNZeR
No worries, friend. But my time playing with all this is coming to an end soon too. I checked out your website and I think the work you are doing is really cool. I wish I had the CNC stuff--I've been thinking about computerizing the Sherlines but haven't had an excuse yet.
Thanks for putting up the video and the pictures--I had no idea one could put inline pics up here (or I would have been doing it long ago...)
I'll do what I can, keep checking the ftp dir, but I have a lot of catching up to do at work this coming week, so no promises...
--Al
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Just checked it and nothing new

Cheers

Sean.

[blue_energy]

Sorry for the tardiness of my reply - life has gotten in the way.

Blue,

Bela Fleck is awesome.  One of my favs.  Just got into them a couple of years ago.

Q:  What's your reference for 5220 RPM? 

@02:57 on the WMV video I can read "4733" on the LCD and hear Al say: "OK, so now we're over 4000 -- almost 5000 RPM on that small magnet."   


Cheers,   

Yada..

@Yada:

With credit to MeggerMan:

174Hz = 174 beats /second = 10440 beats / minute

8 rotor magnets passing the stator would give 1700 rpm x 8 / 60 =  226Hz

174Hz would imply a rotor speed of 1305 rpm and a stator speed of 5220 rpm.

It doesn't really matter whether it's 174 Hz or 178 Hz.  The important point is that the tone is tied to the motion of the rotor/stator.  It's not a property of the materials or construction - like a resonant frequency of the rig.  It's a periodic noise that when made often enough is interpretted to be a tone by the human ear.  If you don't spin the rotor/stator the same speed as Al's was in the video - that tone won't show up. 

For kicks, I've normalized Omni's audio file to fit the dynamic range and accelerated it by 4 times (2 octaves), which might cause something being interpretted by our ears as a noise to become fast enough to be interpretted as a tone.  I'm going to attach it to this post.  Would you please run your analysis on it to see whether some dominant spikes show up?  I would not expect for them to be at 174 regardless, since the simulated rotor rpm in my output is something more like 1,000 - 1,120, rather than 1,320...  But, at least then we could stop looking for that one on Omni's rig. 

I originally did this Friday night after the concert.  I finally got the audio into mp3 and my reply to you and Omni written, but when I attempted to post it I discovered that I had inadvertantly attached the wav rather than the mp3 and wav's are not allowed and the site moved all of my text into null/void.  At that point it was after 2 in the morning here and I just couldn't do it again at the time and haven't had time again until now.

PS - Yeah, I've been a Flecktones fan since '91.  But, this wasn't the Flecktones.  This was Victor and 2 of his brothers and their band (another electric bass, a drummer, and a singer...).  I've been playing guitar for 40 years now; I made a living at it for 2 of those; some people think I'm pretty good.  But - they're wrong.  When I listen to musicians at that level I realize that I've never been/will likely never be more than a rank beginner.  Listening to them is both transporting and depressing for me.  But: I listen anyway...

@blue_energy,

Sorry to bother you with this boring stuff after such an inspiring evening you had. Yes, I understand that but my only goal was to see if we can connect somehow the rpm with the spectral pattern. We can't, it turned out. As for the 174Hz you're right, the conditions have to be kept the same to "hear" that tone. Unfortunately, I don't have anything here to accomplish that save the fact that things such as a Dremel will introduce additional noise which will interfere (not sure it can be filtered good). Anyway, I don't see comparing the acoustic characteristics of the device being of much use for its successful replication but I may be wrong. Do you think any successful machines would sound the same? Do, say, working internal combustion engines have common major acoustic patterns?

@ Omnibus:

Well - suppose you use the dremel to rev it up to 1,400, turn the dremel off, and say something brief like, "mark" when the rotor hits 1305.  If there's an accoustic peak near 174 - we'll know what caused it.  It would not surprise me at all if that particular noise were the sound of the magnets passing each other and the intersecting fields pressing the rotor/stator shafts into their respective bearings 8 times per rotor revolution.  In that case, we would expect for any properly setup rig to exhibit a varient of the same phenomena.

Do I think that all successful machines will sound the same?  Not really, no.  I would expect that two identically constructed rigs spinning at the same speed would have a nearly identical accoustic signature.  But - we know that Al's and everyone elses are NOT identical.  The spindles are different.  As hard as everone has worked to figure out the rotor magnet strength, N38 is NOT identical to Al's rotor magnets (which are somewhat less, as I recall).  Etc.  So - their accoustic signature's would necessarily be differrent as well. 

That having been said, surely Al didn't happen to land on the one combination of magnets, materials, and etc. that would work.  Surely there is confluence of relationship which accounts for the occurence of the effect.  Maybe there are details in the accoustic signature of a working whipmag that result in some portion of the accoustic signature.  On a car there is an accoustic relationship between the valves and the pistons and the distributor (back when they still had those...) of a working engine.  If the timing of those is off - the engine doesn't run.  When there is a second working whipmag - these tests will be considerably more germane, I think. 

My main reason for posting what I did was to show that the spike at 174 Hz is NOT a part of that signature.  Rather, that it is directly related to the speed of rotor/stator.  Maybe your '250-280' sound track will show a similar spike when sped up to something close to Al's running speed.  Recall that the tone on Al's machine whose frequency peaked at 174 (or 178, depending...) was not really audible until it got close to that frequency.

[FunkyJive]

Yadaraf wrote:

See my hypothesis on the 5th harmonic.  FunkyJive's a musician and might have an observation.  What doesn't fit, however, is that the amplitude of the 5th -- if that's what it is -- is higher than the fundamental.

... 5th harmonic:  http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg76194.html#msg76194

I keep thinking of CLaNZeR's video in which he discusses bearing noise.  Great video as usual.  The noise -- and tones like in Andrea's rig -- are peculiar to be sure.

... Bearing Noise:  http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSBearingnoise.wmv

I agree that the HI/LO tones probably are not related to race noise.  Also, recall that Bruce's rig did not have spinning stators, and it still generated interesting tones.  I'm scratching my head.     

Hello Yadaraf.

I'm sorry that I hadn't seen or replied to your question before (have been away for a little while).

For myself the characteristics of the analysed audio are an interesting observation, though I haven't tried to read too much into the precision of the characteristic peaks and troughs due to the many potential influences that will invariably affect acoustic-related analysis  -  unless performed in an anechoic chamber with professional reference microphone(s). Even then the rig itself will have multiple characteristic resonances based on the multipart construction. Added anomalies would also result from the frequency-dependent coupling coefficient of rig to mic if mounted on the camera with the camera rested/mounted on the same table as the rig, for example.

Table resonance can be observed in Alsetalokin's original video for the part where he lifts the motor off of the table and then places it back down on the table surface, with the corresponding audible change in tonal response.

The amplitude of harmonics can indeed be greater than the fundamental where influencing resonance favours the harmonic, and this would apply to any frequency in the observed band.

I would concur with Omnibus, where although I don't dispute that the peaks bear a direct relationship with the rotational velocity of the motor, the peaks and troughs in the observed passband would also reflect the characteristic acoustic influences of the motor, the recording environment, and the camcorder/mic. Disproportionality would also be compounded by AGC of the mic input, in addition to potential filtering designed to emphasise the nominal speech passband (300Hz to 3.4kHz) and/or reduce transport rumble in the case of tape-based camcorders.

Incidentally, someone mentioned the proximity of the flourescent light to the jig, and on reflection it is probably electrical burst-firing noise that is inducing the majority of hum and noise to the camcorder mic circuit.

I look forward to the time when someone here has achieved a working jig of their own, where I believe that electrical (non-acoustic) interfaces to the jig for analytical purposes would offer considerably more value than acoustic analysis alone.


All the best,

FunkyJive

[dean_mcgowan]

@All,

Has anyone considered yet this might be a xaoh ?

Cheers,

Dean

[hoptoad]

@All,
Has anyone considered yet this might be a xaoh ?
Cheers,
Dean

@Dean
HussShhhhhh !!!!  Speak very quietly or the thought might catch on