Thane Heins Perepiteia.

[springfield]

Your rotor uses sets of both magnetic poles, that is, north and south. Each pair of N / S magnets represents 1 true AC sine wave.
Your rotor has 3 N/S pairs at each end, so the AC sine cycle will be 3 per revolution. If your rotor is spinning at 500 rpm , your frequency will be 1500 cpm.
Divide that by 60 (for seconds) and you get 25 HZ ( 25 AC cycles per second ).

@hoptoad, thats interesting. Do you think there could be some resonance effect with the mains frequency? EG in yr example at 1000 rpm it will be 50 HZ, same asline frequency (in UK) so might be expected some kind of resonance in feedback down the shaft, whether it aether or EM or whatever. So exact motor speed could be critical?
-Mike

[aether22]

I can not explain why the experiments differ, it is possible they differ for some other reason.

But I am going to take one more shot at trying to explain to hoptoad and if he will listen Thane as to why if two coils are the same size weight and shape why more turns will not have a larger inductance if it is a generator or transformer coil. (As hoptoad puts it an OP coil)

If you double the number of turns and put in the same current you will get the same magnetic field, that I hope is not in question from anyone reading, very very basic ampere turns stuff. (at least not by any conventional physics)

So if you have a generating coil which has twice the number of turns but half the current it will create the same magnetic field as the HC one.  So what of the extra turns, does it not feel it's self inductance twice as strongly with twice as many turns?

Well yes of course but it also feels the voltage from the primary or rotor twice as strongly.

Actually it is worth noting that it does still have increased inductance, but with an equally higher induced driving voltage current works to keep the same total ampere turns.

You may object that the thinner turns have a higher resistance, yes that doubles the resistance but you only have half the current, it's the current density that matters and that is the same in each (assuming it supports only half the current).

The math and reason and conventional physics is on my side, now I believe in the aether so you can imagine how much I care about the math and conventional view normally (not at all) but here it does support what I am saying.

If experiment disagrees (which has not been accurately demonstrated) in some or all instances I don't know, I do after all believe that the HV coils has a different effect in Thanes device and that is due to the aether, maybe a flowing aether does something else that increases resistance or makes part of the current unobservable by normal means, who knows.

But what I would like to make very clear as it should be from the circuit simulator agreeing with me that according to known electrical principles the number of turns (or inductance) has no effect of the energy that can be pulled from a coil. (indeed if it was a rule every HV transformer would have a shockingly low efficiency and be dramatically larger for a given power which is not the case except of course for better insulation.

Now back to replicating Thanes effect I was hoping to get a reply in the hopes that someone can see what mistake I am making, but in absence of any reply and due to the fact that I can barely show lenz drag with HC coils (hey, maybe the effect is always on ) I have decided to add a 5mm thick 1 inch steel piece to the transformer cores to reduce the airgap to hopefully a quarter of an inch.

And I'll look into adding the back iron since while it's flux coupling abilities would be very poor it might play some other part. But I am not sure if I could find anything like it in a hardware store, unless someone knows what it is called.


Oh yeah, and one other thing.
I am sure many even lowish voltage transformers will have a far higher inductance that the HV coils in Thanes generator and yet many tens of amps flow at low voltages, this is because Thanes HV coils are open magnetic circuits where transformers have closed circuits where the inductance is hugely amplified.

Note: I just tested a transformer with an 80v secondary from 240v, now it did not prove my point as it was .14 Henries but if a better core was used it would not have stopped working suddenly only able to output ma's.
Also it actually is not an 80v output but 2 40v secondaries that in series output 80v, if you measure the inductance in series or singularly they closely match the 4x inductance i mentioned previously.

I would also be very happy to take bets that if it were possible to run it shorted (it would need a current limiter on the primary to safely do so which is doable) you would get half the current if the 2 secondaries were shorted in series than you would get if you only used one or put them in parallel.

[OUman]

If you double the number of turns and put in the same current you will get the same magnetic field, that I hope is not in question from anyone reading...

I think you are mistaken. If you double the number of turns with the same current you double the magnetic field.

So if you have a generating coil which has twice the number of turns but half the current it will create the same magnetic field as the HC one.

I agree but this is inconsistent with your previous statement.

So what of the extra turns, does it not feel it's self inductance twice as strongly with twice as many turns?

Well yes of course but it also feels the voltage from the primary or rotor twice as strongly.

Actually it is worth noting that it does still have increased inductance, but with an equally higher induced driving voltage current works to keep the same total ampere turns.

I can't make sense of these words

You may object that the thinner turns have a higher resistance, yes that doubles the resistance but you only have half the current, it's the current density that matters and that is the same in each (assuming it supports only half the current).

The effect of the resistance is simply to introduce resistive losses, which result in heating but do not change the magnetic field at all unless (a) the current changes or (b) the number of turns changes. If you have a  higher resistance, then of course you will need a higher voltage to create the same current, that's all.

[aether22]

I think you are mistaken. If you double the number of turns with the same current you double the magnetic field.

I have said it correctly many times, i said it wrong once, I meant to say half the current.

I agree but this is inconsistent with your previous statement.

Because my previous statement was not what I meant to say.

I can't make sense of these words

So much for trying to be clear.
I am saying this:

If you double the number of turns you double the voltage picked up. (and if it changed nothing else the current would also double)
And with the current kept the same it will create a magnetic field that is 2 times stronger.

So to keep the magnetic field the same we need to halve the current (say 2 amps to 1 amp instead of 4 amps) despite having twice the voltage (say 10v to 20v) this means we need to multiply by 4 everything that resists the flow of current. (which is ohmic resistance and self inductance, indeed both are multiplied by 4)

100 turns at 2 amps driven from 10 volts  requires .1 Henry (Henry figure is made up and may be way out)
200 turns at 1 amp driven from 20 volts requires .4 Henry

In other words if you want half as much current when faced with twice as much voltage you need 4 times the reactive and ohmic resistance.  And a coil with twice as many turns of the same size mass shape will have 4 times the reactive and ohmic resistance.

They have different kinds of transformers by the way, some where the coils have a low self inductance to save money by using less copper and steel (this causes it to have a high residual current when unloaded).
Other transformers have a really really high self inductance if they spend a lot of time with the primary powered but the secondary not pulling a load.But just because it has a higher self inductance does not stop current from flowing through both coils when loaded.

The effect of the resistance is simply to introduce resistive losses, which result in heating but do not change the magnetic field at all unless (a) the current changes or (b) the number of turns changes.

True.

If you have a  higher resistance, then of course you will need a higher voltage to create the same current, that's all.

I follow I have clarified things enough now hopefully.

The results I got with the difference in induced voltage between the HC and HV coil (in my test of the MOT's) do not even come close to agreeing to the difference in self induction between the 2 coils.
That means that something other than the number of turns if effecting the difference between self inductance in the 2 coils, which is position on the core.

[aether22]

After much thought, if anyones cares here is my plan of action.

I will increase the magnetic coupling between the stator and rotor. (increase the energy output and hence also the resultant mechanical loading)

If that does not lead to success at least by creating deceleration on shorting the HC coils then only one of 2 possibilities remain.

Either a FE (or at least enhanced efficiency) type effect is occurring with the HC coils meaning it does not load the generator much. (this sounds reasonably unlikely, and actually something ( may be able to test)

Or maybe more likely the motor is just not right, barely showing a change in speed as electromechanical loads vary.

Finally I will consider buying the time of someone with a working motor so they can carry out tests that I would want to do. (it's maddening not being able to do these experiments)


hmmm, it also strikes me that this kind of insensitivity to varying loads would occur if for whatever reason I must put in too much power to overcome some non varying loss, still there does not seem to be any such thing.


Also I'll add 18 steel 1 inch washers, either between the magnet and the cup for the magnets too recessed, or on the back of the cup to keep the balance for the magnets that aren't..