OU/COP>1 switched cap PS cct like Tesla's 'charge siphoning'

[poynt99]

I always remember that a capacitor exchanges time for energy.
If a capacitor takes 10 s to charge and you discharge it in 1 s you have about 10x the energy.

Work through an example and see if this is in fact true.

Recalling that Energy=Joules=Watt-seconds, wouldn't the energy in both above cases be equal?

.99

[nul-points]

You [nul-points] previously posted:
> ...a dielectric which can support ion flow, not just electron polarisation
  eg. water in its liquid phase can exhibit both these properties...

If a dielectric supports ion flow but not electron flow - it is a simi-conductor and not a true dielectric.

as you can see from my post you just quoted, i didn't say 'supports ion flow but not electron flow'

Dielectrics do not permit electron or ion flow unless the undergo breakdown and become conductive then they are no longer dielectrics.

you appear to know quite a lot about this subject - more than Cornell Dubilier Electronics**, it seems 

(** CDE Inc., once the world's largest capacitor company)

You may want to read up on dielectrics and ions.

not really, looking at my library of stored webpages on the subject, i see i already did some reading around the subject this summer


here's just a couple quotes (because i like you)

eg., stored 28/07/08
  The Perreault Capacitor has more than twenty times the capacitance density of conventional capacitors, essentially unlimited cycle life, and stable operating performance. Unlike many batteries, the Perreault Capacitor can be safely and reliably operated throughout the -55° to +85°C temperature range. The high capacitance of the capture capacitor results from an electrostatic charge stored at the interface between activated carbon and an aqueous electrolyte in the so-called electric double layer. Since ions are physically stored rather than through chemical reactions, extremely long cycle life results.

and these, stored 29/07/08, from Cornell Dubilier Electronics, not quite as knowledgable as you admittedly, but still interesting 
  "Electrolytes have lower conductivity than metals, so are only used in capacitors when metallic plate is not practical, such as when the dielectric surface is fragile or rough in shape or when ionic current is required to maintain the dielectric integrity"

  "The disadvantage of electrolytic capacitors is the non-ideal, lossy characteristics which arise from the semiconductive oxide properties"

  "The primary purpose of the electrolyte is to serve as a "plate" on the outer anode oxide surface and also to connect to the cathode plate. The electrolyte is a high-resistivity, high-dielectric-constant, high dielectric-strength organic liquid solvent with one or more dissolved, ionically conductive solutes."

all the best
s.

[nul-points]

I always remember that a capacitor exchanges time for energy.
If a capacitor takes 10 s to charge and you discharge it in 1 s you have about 10x the energy.

hi Abba

i think you mean 10x the power, not energy:  Energy = Av Power x Time

all the best
s.

[Grumpy]

as you can see from my post you just quoted, i didn't say 'supports ion flow but not electron flow'


you appear to know quite a lot about this subject - more than Cornell Dubilier Electronics**, it seems 

(** CDE Inc., once the world's largest capacitor company)


not really, looking at my library of stored webpages on the subject, i see i already did some reading around the subject this summer


here's just a couple quotes (because i like you)

eg., stored 28/07/08
  The Perreault Capacitor has more than twenty times the capacitance density of conventional capacitors, essentially unlimited cycle life, and stable operating performance. Unlike many batteries, the Perreault Capacitor can be safely and reliably operated throughout the -55° to +85°C temperature range. The high capacitance of the capture capacitor results from an electrostatic charge stored at the interface between activated carbon and an aqueous electrolyte in the so-called electric double layer. Since ions are physically stored rather than through chemical reactions, extremely long cycle life results.

and these, stored 29/07/08, from Cornell Dubilier Electronics, not quite as knowledgable as you admittedly, but still interesting 
  "Electrolytes have lower conductivity than metals, so are only used in capacitors when metallic plate is not practical, such as when the dielectric surface is fragile or rough in shape or when ionic current is required to maintain the dielectric integrity"

  "The disadvantage of electrolytic capacitors is the non-ideal, lossy characteristics which arise from the semiconductive oxide properties"

  "The primary purpose of the electrolyte is to serve as a "plate" on the outer anode oxide surface and also to connect to the cathode plate. The electrolyte is a high-resistivity, high-dielectric-constant, high dielectric-strength organic liquid solvent with one or more dissolved, ionically conductive solutes."

all the best
s.

Sandy,

You apparently have absolutely no understanding of the information you have quoted, so don't go around spouting off with stuff you do not even understand.

A dielectric that can support ion flow is either in a state of breakdown or has otherwise been rendered conductive - like they say in the info you just post where they add stuff to the dielectric fluid to make it an electrolyte.

The "Perreault Capacitor" sounds like a bunch of hype about a water capacitor.

[poynt99]

Heydude said this before I did and deserves credit. I concur 100%. Well said and succinctly put.

When charging the capacitor from an ideal lossless inductor (no DCR, no eddy losses) that has been priorly charged from a voltage source, it now becomes a pure (lossless) current source and the magnetic energy in joules stored in the inductor, when released into the capacitor will charge it to the same quantity of joules. There is no "extra" amount of joules required to do this.

I have a whole stack of university level textbooks cluttering my desk, but common sense will tell you that the 50% loss is attributed to the non-ideal current source comprised of the voltage source plus charging resistor. This is the culprit and what the textbooks base the "simple charge equation" on. The 50% energy is lost as heat in the resistor, because in this case all of the current must flow through the resistor and it is a lossy device by nature.

Kind regards HD

There are yet no rebuttals?

See also: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4419.msg145766#msg145766

.99