Roll on the 20th June

[purepower]

Pure Power, Ummm  I don't see what this analogy has to do with my analogy.  I believe I clearly state that the heavier wheel would have more friction than the lighter wheel, but would also spin longer. it spins longer because of momentum.
now I haven't timed this to be exact but, I would think that two wheels of the same dimensions, but with one weighing twice as much, spun at the same RPM, would see the heavier wheel spin for almost twice as long. even though the friction is higher.
This was the point I was trying to make. 

Sorry, must have missed that. In that case, I will agree with you. And after what Rusty said last:

Hi Dirt
First this is good you have me thinking and I like that, second I would think the small weights friction is more then the big weights and not the other way.

Why do I think that because the surface to surface contact is the same but the air friction is more for the small weight because it orbits the big weight needing to cut through the air more causing more air friction.

I maybe wrong with that but thats how I see it.

Take Care Dirt
Graham

Im going to have to disagree with him.

Contact Friction

Force=(mu)*N = (mu)*m*g

mu-coefficient of friction, determined by baring type, contact surfaces, etc
N-contact force between surfaces normal to the surface

Wind Friction/Drag

Force=C_d*A_p*[(rho*V²)/2]

C_d-drag coefficient, determined by body type (usually between .001-1.6)
A_p- frontal area, normal to flow
rho- density of fluid
V-velocity of fluid

In comparison, the friction in the axel is going to much, much greater than the drag. And as the wheel gets heavier, friction increases.

In regards to momentum:

There are two ways to increase linear momentum: increase weight or increase velocity (p=m*v). However, since we are dealing with a wheel, we are dealing with angular momentum, which gives us another option.

L=r x p = m*r²*w

m-mass
r-radius weights are located from axel
w- angular velocity

So we can actually increase the angular momentum by simply increasing the distance the masses are from the center without increasing the speed or mass. By not having to increase the total mass, we get away without having to increase friction.

Please note this only changes the angular momentum, not the torque. As I have stated many times before, extending the weights out equally will not change the torque, just angular momentum.

This is why people seem to be getting "better" results with Archer's suggestion of the extensions. They are rotating the wheel at the same speed as before, but the added angular momentum allows them to "break the wall" easier. However, simply starting with more angular momentum will not allow the device to continue in OU as it will eventually die as a result of "breaking the wall" repeatedly. Extending the weights has nothing to do with additional torque, which is what we need for the wheel to continue in OU.

-PurePower

[AB Hammer]

Greetings All

Friction is unavoidable. You can minimize it but you still have it. The reason the heavier wheel runs longer is it builds up kinetic energy from the spin, and the larger it is, the more of it you will have. Now if friction is stopping you from having a running wheel. Your wheel is just not strong enough, for if you have an effective wheel friction will not be a problem except for ware and tear, and that is were lubrication comes in.

purepower

  I posted almost the same time, but to add to what you said. Each time you break through the wall you will still get a jolt of negative resistance, so it will slow down. Just like a carnival cake wheel with a clicker, it will slow it down till it stops.

[purepower]

Hi Rusty,
I'm not sure that I follow what you are saying about the air resistance.  if the two wheels are the same dimensions, air resistance should be the same. the only difference should be the friction in the bearing, which of coarse would be more on the heavier wheel. 
the way I see it mass gives us the power to overcome friction.

Dirt Diggler

Hmm... Well, more mass means more friction, but it also means more momentum.

What you need to understand is this. Momentum is a state of a body (similar to energy; p=m*v, E=.5*m*v²). Friction is a force that alters the state of a body.

Since friction is a force that will always act against the motion of a body to lower its speed, momentum will always decrease in the presence of friction. No matter how fast we spin the wheel or how much it weighs, the friction will always win and decrease the momentum. All we are doing by playing with the variables is extending the amount of time it takes for the wheel to stop.

The inevitable truth is wheel will always stop at some point in the presence of friction, unless there is another force present to counter the effects of friction.

-PurePower

[Rusty_Springs]

Greetings All

Friction is unavoidable. You can minimize it but you still have it. The reason the heavier wheel runs longer is it builds up kinetic energy from the spin, and the larger it is, the more of it you will have. Now if friction is stopping you from having a running wheel. Your wheel is just not strong enough, for if you have an effective wheel friction will not be a problem except for ware and tear, and that is where lubrication comes in.

Hi Hammer
I agree with most but friction doesn't just cause wear and tear it also cause drag, as I know it its friction that stops any system running at 100% so for an OU you must over come friction or your system will just keep slowing down until it stops if your not adding energy to overcome that friction.
Take Care Hammer
Graham
ps I liked the way you explaned that Power.

[Rusty_Springs]

Hi All
I will put friction in terms of the lever, on the first drop you maybe able to get it to bounce right back up, I don't know how but lets say you do.
The next time you wont get up as high because the friction from your bearing and air friction gives you drag stopping your system going right up giving you less energy for the next cycle and it wont bounce as high again to you get to a point where you have equalibrium and no movement.

To change that you have to keep adding weight to your system every cycle.

Take Care All
Graham