Carburated vs Fuel Injection

[Laserrod]

Fuel injection because you can shut it off easy if your ign keep active.
You will need  to control OX sensor because FI will increase gas flow when it senses less pollution.( if you simultainuosly use hho & gas)
Use High Voltage to crack pure water to make HHO (see Stan Meyer Invention)
We need to get electrodes from this guy:


http://www.eetasia.com/ART_8800506872_765245_NT_ef6af674.HTM

[Laserrod]

Heres the article from EE times is you can't load link above. 
Startup QuantumSphere Inc. has claimed that its nanoparticle coatings could make hydrogen easy to produce at home from distilled water, which can bring the cost of hydrogen fuel cells in line with that of fossil fuels.

The company says it has perfected the manufacture of highly reactive catalytic nanoparticle coatings that could increase the efficiency of electrolysis, the technique that generates hydrogen from water. Moreover, the coatings could also eliminate the need for expensive metals like platinum in hydrogen fuel cells.

Boasting 1,000 times the surface area of traditional materials, the coatings can be used to retrofit existing electrolyzers to increase their efficiency to 85 percent?exceeding the U.S. Department of Energy's goal for 2010 by 10 percent. The scheme holds the promise of 96 percent efficiency by the time cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells hit automobile showrooms, according to the company.

"Instead of switching 170,000 gas stations over to hydrogen, using our electrodes could enable consumers to make their own hydrogen, either in the garage or right on the vehicle," said Kevin Maloney, president, CEO and co-founder of QuantumSphere. "Our nanoparticle-coated electrodes make electrolyzers efficient enough to provide hydrogen on demand from a tank of distilled water in your car."

Nano-coated batteries
The first commercial product inspired by QuantumSphere's technology will debut later this year. A battery using a cathode coated with the startup's nanoparticles offers increased energy density 5x over alkaline cells and power by 320 percent. The first commercial non-rechargeable batteries with this increased capacity will be announced by an as-yet-unnamed major U.S. battery maker in 2H 08.

QuantumSphere also claims to be able to improve rechargeable nickel-metal-hydride batteries to the point where they perform better than the less environmentally friendly Li-ion batteries popular today.

The startup plans to first retrofit existing electrolysis equipment with its nanoparticle electrodes to boost efficiency. Next, it intends to partner with original equipment manufacturers to design at-home and on-vehicle electrolyzers for making hydrogen from water for fuel cells. Finally, the company wants to work with fuel cell makers to replace their expensive platinum electrodes with inexpensive stainless-steel electrodes coated with nickel-iron nanoparticles.

QuantumSphere's nanoparticles are available in four formulations: nickel cobalt, iron cobalt, nickel iron and silver copper. According to the Freedonia Group Inc., the nanoparticles can be sold directly into the catalyst metals market, which it predicts will edge up to $4.7 billion this year.

QuantumSphere is also expected to have an impact on the battery market, which Freedonia estimates will grow to more than $5 billion by 2009. Portable fuel cells and direct hydrogen generation are markets that are growing even faster, with fuel cells estimated to top $11 billion by 2013, according to Wintergreen Research Inc., and hydrogen generation to exceed $15 billion by 2016, according to Clean Edge Inc.

Nanoparticle project
QuantumSphere was founded in 2002 with just $100,000 of private funding and still has not taken in any venture capital, although it did have a public funding round last year. The company's founding goal was to create a thimble full of the nanoparticles it invented. But now, just over five years later, it claims to have surpassed its original goal with a manufacturing plant capable of producing tons of nanoparticles per year.

QuantumSphere claims its current manufacturing capacity is enough for both the battery and electrolysis markets. With an eye on future growth, however, the company has partnered with the OM Group Inc. for mass-producing nanoparticles when QuantumSphere can no longer meet demand.

After perfecting the original invention, for which QuantumSphere was awarded a patent last year, the company hired an engineering team to adapt the nanoparticles for particular applications. Leading that team was director of fuel cell research Kimberly McGrath, a prot?g? of George Olah, the 1994 Nobel Prize winner in chemistry. Olah, inventor of the direct liquid-methanol fuel cell, serves as a scientific adviser to QuantumSphere.

"We have formulated a nanoparticle coating that has a very high surface area, enabling inexpensive coated stainless-steel electrodes to exceed the performance of the expensive platinum electrodes used today," said McGrath. "We start with raw material that covers about the size of a sheet of paper, but after converting into nanoparticles, it covers a soccer field."

The nanoparticles are perfect spheres, consisting of a couple hundred atoms measuring from 16nm to 25nm in diameter. They are formed by means of a vacuum-deposition process that uses vapor condensation to produce highly reactive catalytic nanoparticles, for which the engineering team has formulated several end-use applications.

"Our biggest engineering challenge was finding a way to get the nanoparticles to stick to metal electrodes," McGrath said. The company has solved that problem, she said, "enabling existing electrolysis equipment to realize a 30 percent increase in hydrogen output just by retrofitting our coated electrodes."

QuantumSphere projects that the efficiency of electrolysis using its nanoparticle-coated electrodes, now at 85 percent, can be increased to 96 percent by the time hydrogen fuel cell automobiles are in wide use. Adjusting for rising gasoline prices, QuantumSphere projects that performing electrolysis at home to power hydrogen fuel cells will be less expensive than burning fossil fuels.

The company has also made progress in its quest to eliminate the need for expensive platinum electrodes inside the fuel cell itself, claiming that today it can replace half a fuel cell's platinum with nanoparticle-coated stainless steel. QuantumSphere hopes to demonstrate fuel cells with no platinum at all in the coming years.

- R. Colin Johnson

[vdubdipr]

on second thought you could use products that electronicly retard the timing for a total of 16 degrees/ 8 deg. after tdc, that might be easier, but then you got the computor to deal with,

laserrod, try researching noryl its a plastic made by GE that deos the same thing, and i believe PER ravi... that its the final step in perfecting the stan meyers setup........this was the last thing that was  metioned b4 his "visit' but unfortunately noryl has alot of different types that are usesless for hho, but plastic coating seems real interesting...
@loner  i know in a single cylinder the waste spark is an issue but when i watched the youtube engine fundamentals series of 7 or 8 videos, he says that waste spark isnt an issue for 2,3,4,6 or 8 cylinder engines... i know he says it in one of them and explains it but i kinda see it your way too....

[dratner]

Wow, I didn't check this thread for a while because it was dead with just a few responses. Now there is an explosion of comments.

I don't see any way to make the amount of HHO necessary to run a small car on the fly. I don't feel safe keeping a container full of HHO in the trunk of my car either. BIG BANG. So I will be supplementing the gasoline.

I think I will stick to fuel injection, because with aftermarket controlers, I can modify the mixture and timing in real time. In a carb set up, you would have to remove the carb and rejet, which frankly would be a hassle unless you have an aftermarket carb. Even then you would have to open it and pull out the jets. What if the HHO stopped producing? With electronics I could have a backup, gas only fuel map and be on the road quickly.

But, my main question is now, what type of car to get. It needs to be CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP. I was thinking of a 80's VW Golf/Rabbit. I believe that it has a very spacious engine compartment and if I am not mistaken, people still race those things. racing=lots of aftermarket products. Engine is also small. Less than 2.0 liter I believe. Also I think this car has Bosch Jetronic F.I. but I still have to confirm that.

Any other car recommendations would be appreciated.

[dratner]

Loner:

Thank you for your input. It is helpful. If the that model doesn't have F.I. then I probably would go newer. I think I know what you mean about about the allen wrench. I sort of remember doing that adjustment at one point in my past.

On a general note:

The whole reason I want/need to adjust the fuel mixture and timing is because I am going to be leaning out the mixture.
I don't see any significant way of getting better gas mileage unless you decrease the amount of gas coming into the engine. Makes sense, right?

Since I am looking at HHO as a "fuel" if you replace 1/2 of the gasoline with the equivalent amount of HHO (in energy, not volume) you should see a 50% reduction in fuel consumption without a loss of power. Now this is a greatly simplified but you get the idea of what I am after.


Thinking out loud
As has been mentioned before, HHO has a different burn rate than gasoline. I have no idea what stoic is for HHO and I really have no idea what stoic would be for a gas/HHO mixture. I think it's going to take a lot of experimentation and hopefully I won't blow up the engine in the process. I don't think I am going to be adjusting the amount of HHO output or the amount delivered to the engine. If I keep that constant then I can adjust the fuel and timing accordingly. The most adjustment needed will be on the low end of the RPM range since the total volume of energy from HHO will drop as a percentage of the total energy used as RPM's increase and vice versa. I may cut off HHO at idle or below 1500 rpm. Again, only known from experimentation. 

I have an aftermarket air/fuel mixture meter. I have no idea how this works. I imagine it senses some biproduct of burning hydrocarbons. I wonder how it would act with the addition of HHO??? Might not be a good indicator of stoic but could be useful in some other way I haven't figured out yet. Also, I will be closely monitoring exhaust temps. That is a pretty good way of knowing if you are about to melt your engine. Unfortunately, I haven't found a way of monitoring that temp from the drivers seat, without a really expensive monitoring system. If anyone has an idea for monitoring exhaust temps cheaply I have another car that I would really like to do that with. I will also monitor the temp of the hydrolysis tank as that is important too but that sensor will be cheap since it doesn't have to go higher than 200 degrees F.

Anywhooo that's my thoughts for now. Since the VW doesn't have F.I. I will probably go look at something else.