Magnetic Permeability ... I can't find anyone talking about this !!!!!

[wattsup]

@Observer

Now here is something I have been working on and off and may have some bearing on what you are discussing but in more rudimentary terms. Sort of like a super efficient transformer where you are working with the magnetism in the core. In the photo you will notice two iron wire rings coming out of the north and south side of a laminated core covered with a coil. This is taken from a small 120 volts fan motor. You will notice that the bottom ring starts on the left and stops on the right side iron laminate. Then the top ring starts on the right and stops on the left core laminate. This sends a north and south magnetism through the rings. Now when you send a reversing polarity pulse into the coil, this changes the north and south magnetism inside the laminated core and hence the rings and if you have a winding over the ring, this should produce some juice. Of course this is a small scale but the idea is instead of turning a rotor, just switch the magnetism in the core inside the windings. Now add a few magnets to this with another iron core and it could be interesting. The winding over the ring is a 175 strand 46 awg Litz wire. I now know there is not enough winding so I will redo it soon with more litz wire. I recently tried this by adding 2 neo magnets on each side and a top connected iron rod and plugged it into 110 volts ac. It was jumping all over the place. lol

You may also look at the Controller circuit thread where Jacks motor is using huge neo magnets and coils to produce OU (unofficially for now). I believe the magnet and the coil arrangement is producing much faster coil activation rates, promoting core saturation rates that are much much faster at much less driving energy. Pretty incredible and hopefully will be applied to so many other types of OU devices, mainly non-motive designs.

[xee]

@Observer,
Maybe this will help. When you have electromagnet with core you actually have two magnets. One is the core which becomes equivalent to permanent magnet and other is coil which requires current. The magnetic field is sum of fields from both magnets but current is only required for the coil magnet (after the core domains are lined up). Thus magnet with core can have larger magnetic field than magnet without core for same amount of current use (after the domains are lined up). You could get the same thing by using a permanent magnet and a coil together and you can get same magnetic field with no current consumption by just using large permanent magnet.

[The Observer]

Hey Fritz,

Thank you for you comment.

First, you wrote...

The core bundles and focuses the magnetic field.

I really think you mean the solenoid.
The solenoid squeezes it, or focuses the field of the wire into one general spot along the axis of itself..
A solenoid with a small radius will do this more than one with a large one.
The core really does no focusing...it does organize however.

By the way, I do not have a masters in physics... To my dad's dismay ( a physics prof ) I enjoyed life as a ski bum for 10 years instead.
In my first post I referred to a bachelor's degree in Physics & Math with a minor in Geology from a liberal arts college.

Second,

You are right in the sense that my above explanation leaves out some important details...
   however, they do not interfere with what I am saying if you stay within the bounds.

Let me explain. (note... core referred to is of ferromagnetic material)

    Yes.. a coil with no core will produce ..basically.. a magnetic field in accordance with Formula #1 above.

    Yes... a coil with a core will have kind of a sweet spot so to speak, not to mention a gradient. (Formula #2 doesn't mention this)

              That is, there is a point where the weakest weakest weakest magnetic field from the coil will only turn 1 atom of the core's matrix.
                    This is where amplification begins.  The resultant field in simple terms is the MF of the Coil + 1 atom dipole.
              Then the gradient... where there is not only an interaction between the Coil's MF and Core's Dipoles... but of the Dipoles and the other Dipoles.
                    I agree, this can be quite complicated. But the result leans toward total organization.
              Then finally, Saturation... where no more dipoles are left to line up. It is maxed out depending on the # of atoms in the core.
                     More Magnetic Field can be produced with more current... but when you reach saturation, ONLY Formula #1 applies for the addition to the field.
                     At Saturation...the total MF is the MF of the coil + the MF of all the atoms in the core.

So, this magnetic amplification has a range...

     from     MFC + 1 dipole      to        MFC + all the dipoles       where MFC is Magnetic Field of the Coil.

                                                                     and is not infinite in terms of amplification, but is in terms of sustainability.

Again I will state... Conservation of Energy bites the 'everything has a price' believers and agenda...er's right in the ass.
Those electrons will not stop spinning, nor will they stop producing a small magnetic field.
It can add up to nothing... it can add up to something.
Whether nothing or something you must conserve the energy of those electrons.

WHAT, WHY or HOW those electrons keep moving is a damn good question, but irrelevant to this discussion.
They do, and it does not matter what you say or do, they will just a keep on truckin.

Ok... I am going to try and address all points.

    You wrote....      If you move the plates of a charged cap - the charge stays the same - only the voltage changes.

I say that's neat.

Then you wrote...  If you move a core into a coil - and ignore the energy balance of the power used to put it in or pull it out its similar.

I am going to assume you mean a certain amount of energy is required to put the core in the coil when it is running current.
   Thus you are inferring that this energy subtracts from the amplification I am talking about.

         First... This has nothing to do with inserting the core.
                    The core is there, in one place, statically positioned so that it may not move in relation to the coil
                    It was put there in the manufacturing process when no current was running through the coil.
         
         Second...
                       I have news for you... a magnet will attract ferromagnetic material no matter what angles are involved.
                       I admit putting a magnet into a coil the the wrong way would be a project to say the least.... however,
                       this does not apply to ferromagnetic materials where magnetic direction and positioning of the material are not related.

Well, I think that is it.

Again, I thank you kindly Fritz.  You aren't the only one with doubts.
All of these issues need to be addressed for a change of paradigm to occur !
 
                                                            May we look at this marvelous universe without judgment.
         
                                                                                                                                               The Observer

[The Observer]

Dear Xee,

I did go to my College Physics Book that covers this.  It is an extensive well written big black book of physics.

Interestingly enough... I mean INTERESTINGLY enough, the book talks in length about Magnetic Susceptibility where the numbers are not obvious,
    and gives a fine chart of these numbers with different materials. Only the materials are the Diamagnetic ones and the Paramagnetic ones.
    The ones that react lightly one way or the other to an external magnetic field. FERROMAGNETIC ONES WERE LEFT OUT.  hmmm

Then when it came to Magnetic Permeability... which is derived from the Susceptibility, they left it to a footnote calculation with NO CHART OF THESE #s !
    The numbers that mean the magnetic field is literally amplified by that amount.  Like 5,000 or 1,000,000 times.
Of course even figuring out the Ferromagnetic materials that lead to the big #s would be a challenge since the chart only mentions the Dia & Para Materials.

                                                                                     Gee Wiz Wally  !!!

Only 1 single rather small paragraph !!! was dedicated to the fact that the magnetic field is increased without any extra current in a solenoid/core situation.
It was like finding a needle in haystack.

I can see a naysayer saying, that is because it is not important.
Well, we are going to have to differ on that and the reason it may have been brushed over.

As far as the domains turning... that is kind of a misstatement. The domains get bigger as a result of the the adjacent atom dipoles lining up.
It's not as if this big thing turns.  Only the dipoles turn and the domains thus increase in size.

As far as trying to help me.. how bout saying 1 positive thing about this. Hell, I'd appreciate more if you got em !

With that, I do thank you for your comments.  It does help clarify my thoughts.

Regards,
             The Observer

[The Observer]

Wattsup....

I not only thank you for your comment,
but also your courage, or just plain curiosity that enables you to look past the status quo of "I can't, you can't, we can't".
Or maybe you are just smarter than the average Watsssuppper.   ;o)

Never-the-less, that contraption looks pretty cool.
And you are the first person who has imparted information to me that shows you understand how this works.
That is, there are no moving parts cept the atoms of the paramagnetic material and the magnetic field of the coil.

Your post gives me an idea that a magnet in the mix would really give the dipoles something to spin back to after the pulse.
      A definite source of extra energy on the down side of the cycle.
Otherwise. it may be possible to get those dipoles spinning at their Resonant Frequency with just the coil, no magnets.
This would even use less energy than just any alternating current frequency since of spin or motion is accumulative in a Resonant situation.
Not only that... lower harmonic frequencies will trigger higher ones, which means the frequency of the pulses may not have to be all that high.

Keep going and keep me posted.

                                               The Observer