Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !

[ResinRat2]

Hi everyone,

Well I did some experimenting this weekend, trying to get the circuit to work that mramos sent me. It was designed to cycle between the four circuits I outlined previously in this thread. Well it did not have enough "juice" to get a desired output of gases. Mramos is working on some modifications to try next.

Just for fun, attached is the video of two cells connected to a single AA battery for a boost. This was wired to get hydrogen off both Tungsten electrodes. Its fun to watch, and shows the potential. I think its good output for a single AA battery.

Please ignore the mouthwash and dixie cup nearby. Safety was not my initial concern at this time, and I feel a little embarassed at my carelessness. Sorry people, I'll be more careful next time

[ResinRat2]

Hi Everyone,

I did a great deal of experimenting this weekend using Tungsten, Aluminum, copper and zinc electrodes. I was trying to see how to maintain a cell that mimicked experiment #13 of Linnard Griffin's patent. I picked this experiment because it seemed the easiest for me to try at this time. I wanted to use a base instead of an acid system just out of personal preferance.

This cell consisted of concentrated NaOH solution with magnesium and silver colloids with Tungsten/carbide and zinc electrodes.  I was using 1.5 and 9 volt batteries to see how these would effect the stability of the cell. I also used NiCad batteries (1.5V) to see if the cell would recharge the batteries during switching of the connections.

Experiment #1 consisted of a duplicate of experiment #13 with switching of the battery connections to see how the cell was affected.  I used a 1.5 volt battery and found that whatever electrode the negative side of the battery was connected to would give off gas very vigorously. As the test went on the battery voltage would drop initially on each connection, then would slowly rise again as the gas production began to slow (about 10-180 seconds range). I kept switching the connections (+ and - connections of the battery) as each connection voltage returned to 1.2volts. Eventually the tungsten electrode would get a plating on it which seemed to require more and more time to produce gas. Eventually the battery voltage would drop below 1.25 volts (approx.) which then seemed to inhibit the production of gas to the point where no gas was produced from either electrode. The battery itself (alkaline) would become very warm over time.
     I repeated this experiment at least three times and confirmed this happening each time. A layer of reddish precipitate would form at the bottom of the cell over time (Silver? Magnesium? Zinc? Tungsten?).
     When a NiCad battery was used the voltage would also go up and down as well. It did not seem to last as long as the alkaline battery but it still got warm.

Experiment #2 took the cell from Experiment #1 and replaced the zinc electrode with a copper electrode I made from twisting about 6 feet of stripped copper wire. The purpose of the experiment was to see how dissolved zinc (zinc oxide) in the cell would replate on the copper electrode. Dingus Mungus mentioned to me that Dr. Griffin used the copper electrode (supposedly inert to the reaction in the cell) to replate zinc on. I applied a current from a 1.5Volt Alkaline battery (negative to the copper electrode, positive to the tungsten) and watched as the zinc replated on the copper electrode, turning the electrode grayish in color as if by magic. I then continued to switch the connections of the battery again as in experiment #1. Observing as gas poured off each electrode as the connection was switched. Again the same thing happened as in experiment #1 with the battery eventually being depleted below 1.25V (approx).  I then switched to a 9 volt battery and began switching connections again until again the reaction slowed at each switching of the connections and eventually stopped.
     After the cell sat overnight the entire cell was reddish in color. The tungsten electrode as well as the bottom of the cell (precipitate) and the color of the solution. A fresh 1.5V alkaline battery did not seem to affect it much. Neither did a 9 Volt. I declared it dead but just for kicks I tried Experiment #3

Experiment #3 took the dead cell of Experiment #2 and replaced the copper electrode with an aluminum one. I wanted to see if the aluminum reaction could be controlled in some useful way.
     The aluminum immediately began to give off gas as it was immersed in the NaOH solution. Which is what I saw from previous experiments. This is aluminum oxidizing and giving off Hydrogen. This reaction would continue until the aluminum was gone but I attached it by a wire to the tungsten electrode. Both eventually began to give off gas. Most likely hydrogen from both as the aluminum oxidized and the aluminum electrode shrunk over 12 hours of time. The reddish color completely precipitated at the bottom of the cell and after adding a battery and switching connections to accelerate the gas production, a grayish coating plated on the aluminum. (Zinc? Aluminum Oxide?).
     This grey coating conglomerated around the electrode and floated to the top surface of the liquid level. This cell was a mess with red precipitate at the bottom, coatings on both electrodes, and grey conglomerate floating on top of the cell.
     This makes me question the stability of the system.

Some conclusions:

     :The cell of Experiment #13 of the patent seems to work fine as long as no voltage is applied to the system. The cell will give off gas at a very slow rate until the zinc electrode is depleted. The use of battery voltage can replate the zinc onto the zinc electrode and produce oxygen but this depletes a battery and can cause the tungsten-carbide electrode to get a coating on it (zinc?) that seems to eventurally destroy the stability of the cell. The switching of the connections of the battery to alternately produce hydrogen then oxygen seems to eventually hurt the cell stability.

    :The use of a copper electrode seems to work at first to replate zinc, but the electrode seems to destroy the integrity of the cell if left overnight in the solution. The whole cell becomes contaminated with reddish precipitate that sticks to the tungsten electrode as well. The cell did not last long after that.

     :The use of an aluminum electrode is difficult to control. The reaction never stops unless a voltage is applied to the system, thus stopping the production of hydrogen off the aluminum electrode, but accelerating the production off the tungsten electrode at the same time. Aluminum goes on its own, but if the aluminum kept being added to the cell as it was depleted the OH- ions would eventually be depleted and the reaction would slow or even stop. This goes for the zinc electrode as well.

     :The application of voltage to the system with an alkaline or NiCad battery can accelerate the gas production, but it also seems to hurt the stability of the cell. Causing precipitation of reddish precipitate and the eventual plating of the tungsten electrode. Eventually the battery voltage drops below its ability to keep the system production of gas. The cell dies.

     :The patent Experiment #13 may not be the best or most stable system to experiment with. It seems very easy to destroy the cell's stability and the gas production goes at a very disappointing rate without the addition of external battery current. This results in the eventual depleting of the cell, and it no longer produces gas.

This will end my investigation into the patent Experiment #13 as a long-term system for the production of hydrogen. I will look over the patent and see which experiment looks promising for me to try next. I just wanted to report my results for others to see.

Please make suggestions or comments if you can. I would appreciate any one else's input or observations.

Thanks everyone for your interest.

[Dingus Mungus]

I have recently found similar results in my miniture cell replications, and due to my inability to leave the cell running while I'm not working with it, most of my cells lasted 1-3 days before contamination ruined the cell. I've also recently read online that Zinc will disolve in a base liquid and form Zn(OH)2. So I've been looking for a new anode myself... The electronegitivities of each active metal show the potential structure of the cell, and I'm just looking for more stable metals to replace the zinc and silver.

Quite unfortunate this patent isn't living up to its observations...

[ResinRat2]

Hi Dingus,

I know it seems the patent is not living up to your initial expectations but it is just like when I have been involved in patents at work. The patent gives just enough information to try to cover as wide and general area of the subject as possible. This usually means the exact way a patent describes a process does not necessarily give a good outcome. That also means it is not necessarily able to be duplicated as described either.

Beginning in paragraph (0139) of the patent it begins to described the most preferred components of the cell. This is probably a good place to start, and try to find an experiment that comes close to the preferred components.  Components including:

     :Basic solution: aqueous NaOH solution of at least 2.5 Molar concentration; or Acidic solution of H₂SO₄ or HCL of at least 1.0 Molar contration.


     :The first colloid preferrably silver colloid.

     :The Cathode preferrably Tungsten-Carbide with a surface area greater than the
       Anode.
     :The Anode is aluminum or a mixture of aluminum and other less reactive metals.

     :The second colloid is a metal of higher reactivity than the anode and cathode. Most
       probably Aluminum or Magnesium

     :An ionic salt with a metal less reactive than the anode. Probably zinc sulfate or zinc
       chloride or cobalt(II)sulfate or cobalt(II)Chloride.

     :A power source of not less than 12 volts DC current which is used to regenerate the
      anode or to increase hydrogen production.

This may be good starting points, the best of which seem to conform most closely to experiment #22 of the patent. This is in acidic medium with tungsten and aluminum electrodes and zinc heptahydrate ionic salt with silver and magnesium colloids. My experience with testing experiment #13 gives me some insight on the problems of maintaining the cell. This means that no power should be added to the cell until the anode needs to be regenerated. Otherwise leave it alone and let it produce the hydrogen by itself. This may give a reaction vigorous enough to produce a good acceptable stream of hydrogen on its own which can be started and stopped by connecting the anode and cathode with a copper wire.

This is probably where I will begin the next phase of experiments. Though I may give experiment #13 one more try with mramos's enhanced circuit that he will be sending me. I would rather use NaOH solution than an acid solution that tends to have a more disagreeable odor.

Thanks Dingus, for helping to confirm some of my results.

[ResinRat2]

Hi Mramos,

I wonder if the higher voltage is related to the quality of the replating of the anode. Do you know if a different quality of replating would result from using a higher voltage(12V) than a lower voltage of say 1.5 to 3 volts? I have never plated a metal out before this. Does anyone know if it matters?

Dr. Griffin doesn't elaborate on why he recommends 12V minimum of DC current.

He says in the patent the electrolysis should run under its own power with the DC current used to regenerate the anode or enhance the reaction rate. That's all he really says about it.

I was hoping to test this using low voltage so let's just leave it at your present settings of 3V max and let me see if this works. Just send the circuit as is because I really don't want to go higher unless I have to.

Thanks for all your help

Dave