Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?

[tbird]

hi Stefan,

it's good to see a na-sayer onboard .  i'll try to kept the proof coming so you stay onboard.  i certainly understand your confusion. the inventor tried a little too hard to get his message across.  once you get the hang of what he is trying to say, then the drawings become clearer.

How much water can you press out of the pipe ?
At what height is the pipe over the water surface ?

let's think about a syringe.  the body holding the fluid and the needle the pipe above water.  the plunger would be our shuttle piston.  if you have ever used a syringe, you know the harder you push, the further the fluid goes.  no pressure, nothing comes out, negative pressure, you suck stuff in.  now if you put a larger diameter needle on, the fluid comes out easier, more of it, but not as far for same pressure applied on smaller diameter needle.  if you increase the pressure proportionate to the increase in needle diameter (volume), you will get the same distance with more volume.  thus the body empties faster.  appling this to our device, if you have 10 psi positive pressure on a surface area of 12 square inches, you could raise (10x12=120lbs) 1 inch above water line.  if you decreased the exit diameter by half, you double the heigth to 2 inches and so on.  if you got down to 1 sq. in. exit tube size, the the lift would be 12 inches.  that's 120 lbs thru a 1inch squre pipe to a height of 12 inches.  every time you reduce the volume, you reduce the weight, which increases the height needed to weight 120 lbs.  at 120lbs, the piston will stop moving. at 119lbs., the piston will go up, 121lbs the piston will go down.

The main question is now, how much water-weight  x distance to move ( lever action) do you need
to recompress the swimmer-piston ?
I guess there is pretty much energy needed, right  ?

here again comes back to my previous post.  leverage is the key.  the water being moved by the shuttle piston sideways has, basicly, no effect on the amount of pressure being applied.  the load comes from being higher than water level.  the pressure needed to change the volume of the shuttle piston depends on how deep and how much force you want the shuttle piston to go and supply, respectively.  in the 12" square example above, the figures i used were to keep it simple, but not accurate.  fresh water does have a specific weight.  1 cubic foot weighs 64.7 pounds (real close).  so 1/12th (1inch x 12inches x 12inches) of that is 5.39 pounds.  in the netural state (doesn't rise or sink) the shuttle piston would displace the same amount of water as it weights.  if we give our shuttle piston a 12" depth we would now have a 1 cubic ft piston weighing 64.7 pounds.  if we compress it 1 inch, it will have a negative buoyacy of 5.39 pounds which = (5.39lbs/12cubic.in.) .449psi.  not much pressure, but it will move water above water level.  now if we allow our piston to fall to a depth of 11.33 ft (1/3 of an atmosphere (14.7lbs psi)), we will have an increase of (14.7/3) 4.9psi.  if we allow our piston to return to its orginal size, it won't do it.  the pressure surrounding it will be greater than the .449psi we compressed it to in the beginning.  ok...what do we do?  we increase the pressure in the piston to 5psi to start with.  now we need to compress it to 5.449psi so it will sink with the afore mentioned pressure of .449psi.  now when we release the piston at 11.33 ft, it will expand to not only the orignal 1 cubic ft, but to a plus .1psi.  this will give it a positive buoyancy, so it will float back up.  the higher it travels, the more it will expand (if not contained), creating more pressure above.  this would be ok if we didn't expect continuous work to be done on this half of the cycle.  BUT, we are greedy.  so, let's go back to the start and increase the pressure inside the piston by the amount to produce the work we want.  anybody figure it out already?   5.349 would be right.  if we want the work to be exactly = in both directions, we wll have to limit our piston volume to 13 inches high.  once back to the top of the run, it will be time to recompress the shuttle piston.  now we know how much pressure is inside (at compressed state), we need to set up the leverage to recompress the shuttle piston.  now, how much weigh do we need to exert 5.349psi to 12 sq.in.?  12 x 5.349=64.188lbs.  that amounts to just under 1 cubic ft of water.  since we allowed our shuttle piston to go down 11.33ft and return that same 11.33ft, we should have 22.66 cubic ft of water available.  now the question becomes, how much do we take away from doing our main work?  if we allow for a little loss, we could use 1 cubic ft at 1 to 1 leverage and still leave 21.66 cubic ft to do work.  we must remember we didn't set this up to produce much pressure (.449psi).  as a result, the exit pipe would have to be fairly small to get to any favorable height.  the smaller the pipe, the slower the flow for a given pressure.

armed with this example, you can now think more clearly about the real project to build.

if i made any math mistakes, please rap me on the knuckles and let me know.

ooandioo & 2tiger, more to come.

[tbird]

hi 2tiger,

i'm sure your heart is in the right place, but your phyics isn't or maybe you don't understand completely how the unit works.

As long the shuttle is piston like with seals it won?t displace water in any kind, because the body is not surrounded by water.

hopefully you are right about not being totally surrounded.  that would mean our seals weren't doing a good job.  however, the lift comes from the bottom, not the sides.  since in the up movement the water is allowed to fill in behind the piston, the water above the piston is neturalized.  remember the ouside water goes all the way to the top.  so with the piston now displacing more weight  than it weighs, it goes up.  didn't you read my post about this test?  do you not believe me?  if you are not too lazy and really want to be fair, do it yourself.  i'm sure the water where you are will give the same result.

your only problem maybe you didn't realize the job of the 2 (of 4)checkvalves was to allow outside water to fill in behind the shuttle piston, in both directions (1 for up, 1 for down).

either way, please don't come back with such negative definitive statements without logical and defenitive proof.

[tbird]

hi Andi,

i'm sorry i wasn't interested in this before.  i'll try to make it up to you and John Herring.

the link you sent might be of help, if i could read it.  i'm afraid my first and only language is english.  i'll leave the connection to them up to you, ok?  if their specialty is math, i'm sure we will need them.

you said before you thought more tests would be needed.  did the post to stepan help any?

tbird

[ooandioo]

Hi tbird.

Tomorrow, if I find time, I'm going to do some tests myself. I'm thinking about only using the second part of the mill - the move upward. Also I think about if its possible to use a baloon thats going to be filled with compressed air at the bottom of the pipe in order to take the shuttle upward. Maybe inserting the compressed air could also be done from the outside of the whole system...

I'll get back to you later.
Andi.

[tbird]

hi all,

at this time would like to say a few things in general.

we don't know when someone post a comment where their loyalities really lie until they use definitive statements without the definitive proof.  i, myself have probably done this in the heat of the moment.  it does no good for anybody.  please, all of us, refrain from doing this here.  if we are barking up the wrong tree, it will come out soon enough.

also, it would be nice to have a little humor along the way.  i think it would be a good thing if at least once a page someone would write something to bring a smile to our face.  if you agree, you'll get a kick from my next.

along time ago my dad had a friend named joe.  seems joe was feeling a bit run down, so he went to see the old doc.  after telling the doc about not having any energy, the doc said, "sounds like you need to cut back on your love life."  to which fred responded, "which part doc, the thinking about it or the talking about?"

have a good day and good luck in your searches.

tbird