Dissociation of the Water Molecule

[Farrah Day]

Hi Newbie

Here is an example for you.   When you perform electrolysis in a cell  for a while... Then turn off the cell..     You'll have a voltage potential difference between electrodes ... Where does this voltage come from?            The voltage isn't there because the ions are equally distributed throughout the cell. 

I believe I know the answer to this, but before I give it, when I was refering to the ion density remaining constant throughout the solution between the electrodes I was refering to the ions of water, not the sodium or sulphate ions.

In fact I totally agree and would expect there to be a higher concentration of sodium and sulphate ions at the electrodes - hence my point about polarisation of the electrodes.

To your point about residual voltage, I have done quite a few experiments along these lines, and found that in some cases I still had a residual voltage across the electrodes as much as an hour after I'd disconnected the power source. In fact I once monitored this specifically and recorded the results.  One thing to note is that, irrelevant of what voltage I was using across the cell in the first place, the residual voltage always quickly dropped to that below the voltage level required for electrolysis - which makes sense. So the residual voltage was never enough in itself to continue performing electrolysis. What I did find was that the longer I had been operating the cell before I disconnected it from the power source, the longer the residual voltage remained.

Now the interesting part. I had expected that I could discharge the electrodes and so get rid of the residual voltage by simply shorting out the terminals - I couldn't. In fact nothing I could do would deplete this residual voltage.  I even took the cell out of the solution, but while wet, the residual voltage remained!

This led me to the logical conclusion that it is the sodium and sulphate ions at and on the electrodes that are providing this residual voltage, and as the sodium and sulphate ions do not exchange electrons at the electrodes, I could not discharge this potential difference.  Only after time (quite a long time) would the sodium and sulphate ions become once again totally dispersed throughout the water.

Newbie, this is exactly the kind of considered and thoughtful discussion I thrive on. I find that this kind of discussion can often throw up things that may have been overlooked in the past or ill-considered in the first place and hence open the mind to other ideas and theories  - Keep it up.

PS. All that I say in my posts, apart from that which is known to be beyond any doubt, scientific fact, is only my opinion or my personal interpretation and should not be considered anything else.

[exxcomm0n]

Hi all,

@ Farrah

I noticed that same behavior (but not in such an in depth manner) when I was experimenting with HHO.

I discovered it when I had been producing HHO for a while and then decided to see if I could switch electrical delivery.
Every time I did, I would have no production. It would take a large amperage jolt to change this and production still wouldn't be what it was before switching polarities.

I asked about this effect and was told that a cell acts like a very inefficient capacitor, and from both our experiences this would seem true.

I then wrapped my cell with 12 AWG solid core house current wire (about 40-45 turns) and used it as electrical delivery to one electrode, and made a 3 turn coil loose outer coil from 3/16" copper tubing and used it for delivery to other electrode formed in much the same way as a Tesla coil, but just delivering positive and negative current.

The cell is a clear plastic 2 qt. food storage container with clamp seal lid from walmart with a 9 plate -N+N-N+N- electrical wall switch plate electrode set gapped about 1-2mm.

You can see it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnQTsLIucQ&feature=channel_page
(It has the least bad scripting and useless bloat.)

Every time (except once) using this set up I could exchange the electrode polarities and have instant production.
At this point I became excited as I saw it as an answer to AC electrolysis, but did not get to continue with testing it due to time constraints (although I'm going to be getting into experimentation again with this "real soon" ).

The thing that stuck with me from this is the question of why if you coil wrapped a capacitor it would stop holding charge, as this is what seemed to happen from my meager understanding.

Could it be (and this is pure speculation) that the magnetic field of the current traveling in the coiled electrical delivery wire kept the cell plates from being able to accumulate electrons?

I don't have an answer for that, but it's relatively simple to try if you have the spare wire.

[newbie123]

Hi Newbie

I believe I know the answer to this, but before I give it, when I was refering to the ion density remaining constant throughout the solution between the electrodes I was refering to the ions of water, not the sodium or sulphate ions.

In fact I totally agree and would expect there to be a higher concentration of sodium and sulphate ions at the electrodes - hence my point about polarisation of the electrodes.

To your point about residual voltage, I have done quite a few experiments along these lines, and found that in some cases I still had a residual voltage across the electrodes as much as an hour after I'd disconnected the power source. In fact I once monitored this specifically and recorded the results.  One thing to note is that, irrelevant of what voltage I was using across the cell in the first place, the residual voltage always quickly dropped to that below the voltage level required for electrolysis - which makes sense. So the residual voltage was never enough in itself to continue performing electrolysis. What I did find was that the longer I had been operating the cell before I disconnected it from the power source, the longer the residual voltage remained.

Now the interesting part. I had expected that I could discharge the electrodes and so get rid of the residual voltage by simply shorting out the terminals - I couldn't. In fact nothing I could do would deplete this residual voltage.  I even took the cell out of the solution, but while wet, the residual voltage remained!

This led me to the logical conclusion that it is the sodium and sulphate ions at and on the electrodes that are providing this residual voltage, and as the sodium and sulphate ions do not exchange electrons at the electrodes, I could not discharge this potential difference.  Only after time (quite a long time) would the sodium and sulphate ions become once again totally dispersed throughout the water.

Newbie, this is exactly the kind of considered and thoughtful discussion I thrive on. I find that this kind of discussion can often throw up things that may have been overlooked in the past or ill-considered in the first place and hence open the mind to other ideas and theories  - Keep it up.

PS. All that I say in my posts, apart from that which is known to be beyond any doubt, scientific fact, is only my opinion or my personal interpretation and should not be considered anything else.

Same here..  But as interesting as standard H2O electrolysis (and researching the gray areas) can be ,   I feel people still experimenting with Meyer/Boyce/HHO,  are just beating a dead horse!       I've come to the conclusion, that LENR aka "Cold Fusion" is the way to go if you truly  want to search for a potentially legitimate (and working),  "free", clean, energy source...     There have been some recent developments wrt  LENR (low energy nuclear reactions) at the Navy (SPAWAR) but very little interest on this site.     I wonder why people are trying to replicate these experiments? Seems much more viable that gravity wheels, magnet motors, magic circuits, etc.

But for basic electrolysis experiments and maybe some "gray areas" in science.. Check out this guy's site:  http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ 


Also, If the Kanzius experiment really works, this would be way more interesting than the Boyce/Meyer concepts (fantasies).

[CrazyEwok]

I feel people still experimenting with Meyer/Boyce/HHO,  are just beating a dead horse!       I've come to the conclusion, that LENR aka "Cold Fusion" is the way to go if you truly  want to search for a potentially legitimate (and working),  "free", clean, energy source...     

The people researching these "ideas" believe that this style/form/process holds the most potential... claiming one thing is more legitimate than the other is just asking for the occult bashing that these ideas have...

Also, If the Kanzius experiment really works, this would be way more interesting than the Boyce/Meyer concepts (fantasies).

I think that a lot of things would be smarter for our society to do but it ain't going to happen on its own...  IF it really works... IF all the other ideas "really" (quotations because there are no replications) worked then they would be more interesting... Our greatest problem is funnily enough our largest driving force... Everything is controlled by the dollar... But those ideas are for another forum...

[newbie123]

The people researching these "ideas" believe that this style/form/process holds the most potential...

Another weird possibility is that nobody here would be interested in a Kanzius replication...   If someone actually replicated Kanzius on this site,  the invention (and science, even if brand new) might not be 'fantastic' enough to be appreciated... And LENR maybe as well.