There is no Over Unity

[IronShell3d]

I have before actually.

I thought I explained this already, but I'll try again....    If a magnet is just sitting next to a wire  (wrapped around the magnet, or whatever),  electrons (and whole atoms)  aren't excited or moving (other than their movement due to temperature), but a changing magnetic field will 'push' the electrons in one direction (or two directions for alternating directions) and create a current.    But the PUSH is what is required, not just a stationary magnet.

There is a "relative velocity" between the magnet and the electrons in the wire, but unlike the beam image in my previous post, the electrons are more stationary and the magnetic field is moving (the opposite effect).

Hi NewBie123,

The Copper electron is moving. It is in orbit in the outer shell of the Copper atom.

I suggest you need to think about the binding energy needed to break the outer shell Copper electron away and now that energy is delivered to the spinning, in orbit and moving Copper outer shell electron to cause it to break away and move to an adjacent Copper atom outer shell.

IronShell3d

[newbie123]

Who said the magnet was moving? Stop thinking about motors as we are discussing a single isolated event.

That event is: does the H field of a stationary magnet cause domain alignment in a nearby stationary ferrite or not?

If you move a magnetic field near a ferromagnetic material, the magnetic domains will align.      Once the magnet is near the material the magnetic moments will stay aligned, until the external magnet is removed.

If it does cause domain alignment, then where does the energy come from that was needed to overcome domain alignment losses (Hysteresis losses) in the ferrite?

This is the part you seem to be having a hard time understand (or I'm just misunderstanding you).    Once a magnetic field is affecting (magnetizing) a ferromagnetic material, NO ENERGY required to hold the atomic dipoles  in their alignment.  As the magnetic dipoles  align (when you first move in a  magnetic field)  this is when the hysteresis losses occur ... overcoming the repulsion or attraction of a magnet, AFAIK.

Second question which you have not addressed:

If we then release either the magnet or the ferrite or both, they accelerate toward each other and in the process do work and increase the kinetic energy of the moving item.

So where then does the energy come from that caused the kinetic energy increase in the moving items as they accelerate toward each other?

It's the same energy that was used to separate them.   If you have two magnets that you've separated  (with force), then let them come together ... The energy of the magnets  coming together is the same as the  energy  required to bring them apart.   This energy is stored as potential energy within the system.

[IronShell3d]

If you move a magnetic field near a ferromagnetic material, the magnetic domains will align. Once the magnet is near the material the magnetic moments will stay aligned, until the external magnet is removed.

This is the part you seem to be having a hard time understand (or I'm just misunderstanding you). Once a magnetic field is affecting (magnetizing) a ferromagnetic material, NO ENERGY required to hold the atomic dipoles in their alignment. As the magnetic dipoles align (when you first move in a  magnetic field)  this is when the hysteresis losses occur ... overcoming the repulsion or attraction of a magnet, AFAIK.

It's the same energy that was used to separate them. If you have two magnets that you've separated  (with force), then let them come together ... The energy of the magnets coming together is the same as the energy  required to bring them apart.   This energy is stored as potential energy within the system.

Hi NewBie123,

Obtaining domain alignment requires real energy to overcome the frictional losses as the domains move internally inside the ferrite from random to aligned. The entropy level inside the ferrite also changes. So lets focus on the energy input into the ferrite that is needed to overcome the real frictional losses as the domains rotate into alignment with the applied H field from the magnet.

Once aligned there is then an attractive force generated (no repulsive forces in ferromagnetic to magnet interactions). If either the magnet or ferrite or both are free to move, there is energy needed to cause the movement / acceleration / gained kinetic energy.

So both the act of overcoming frictional losses during domain alignment in the ferrite and the movement of either or both the magnet / ferrite toward each other require the use of energy.

What I keep asking you is to understand where this energy is sourced from? By the way both energy uses do turn into heat, which can be measured.

As for what happens when you try to pull the ferrite away from the magnet, that has nothing to do with this discussion so lets focus on the initial domain alignment and mass movement energy requirements that need to be sourced from some energy source.

IronShell3d

[newbie123]

Hi NewBie123,

Obtaining domain alignment requires real energy to overcome the frictional losses as the domains move internally inside the ferrite from random to aligned.

I'm familiar with this concept.

The entropy level inside the ferrite also changes.

But not with this one....   Do you have a reference?

So lets focus on the energy input into the ferrite that is needed to overcome the real frictional losses as the domains rotate into alignment with the applied H field from the magnet.

Once aligned there is then an attractive force generated (no repulsive forces in ferromagnetic to magnet interactions). If either the magnet or ferrite or both are free to move, there is energy needed to cause the movement / acceleration / gained kinetic energy.

So both the act of overcoming frictional losses during domain alignment in the ferrite and the movement of either or both the magnet / ferrite toward each other require the use of energy.

There really is  no mystery here, but I'm not sure what else to say....  The energy required to overcome frictional losses in the domains comes  from the two objects coming together and accelerating toward each other.

[HeairBear]

Maybe you could make some illustrations or a mini movie for him...  to help him out a bit?