Claimed OU circuit of Rosemary Ainslie

[ddmdragon]

Hi Hoppy,

Poynt99 has a point..HV Transients do strange things to point contacts where there may be any form of impurities, as they will act very similar to PN junctions and parasitic capacitances love to just let them through I tell you...

Also did you establish some form of control test to verify that the battery was draining at the expected rate?

[allcanadian]

@TK

@MH: you're telling me! It is totally unstably stable. But regularly unstable. You can see the same fine features repeating from cycle to cycle.
And sure, fingers make the frequency vary, and can kick it over the threshold into nice clean pulses. The pot settings to get it here are, as hoppy said, incredibly sensitive (and in my case I do think they are related to that bad spot). I see that Aaron has gone to 3 ten-turn precision pots.
But I think we really need, now, to see Aaron's 4 traces like you suggested, or even just any two including the current trace. At least in my case, the average input current is high.
But still, my traces aren't exactly like Aaron's, and that bothers me. I need to do some more fiddling.

I hope you now understand why so few people understand this simple effect, LOL. I call this the hand grenade effect, the pin is either pulled or it is not and there is no almost or inbetween. The major issue is the incredibly narrow band of operation, either you are on it or you are not which is why the chances of stumbling onto this are slim to none unless you are actually looking for it. This is also why the spice simulator is completely useless here--we are speaking of electromechanical effects in the components.

[Hoppy]

Hi Hoppy,

Are you indicating that you were working with two diodes, a series diode at the battery positive, and the more familiar parallel diode across the coil-resistor.  You tried with the series diode or bypassing the series diode with no noticeable difference across the shunt resistor?  Then as a separate test you tried with/without the parallel diode across the coil-resistor and got similar results?

I have a new tentative theory about the high voltage spikes that Aaron is seeing at the battery positive terminal:  It's back to basics again because you can't forget that the MOSFET is not conducting so current can't flow in the circuit.  That's the only way to get the high voltage pulse in the first place.

The fact that the inductive energy from the discharging coil-resistor has "nowhere to go" because the MOSFET is switched off results in the energy going to three places:  1) Some of the energy is capacitively coupled through the MOSFET junction capacitances of the gate and source pins and goes into the 555 circuit and the shunt resistor because of dv/dt to ground.  2) Some of the energy is dissipated through the MOSFET "off" resistance and goes through the shunt resistor to ground.  3) Some of the energy is reflected back to the battery positive terminal and travels through the battery to ground.

For the battery, the real issue is how do you model it for high-speed transients.  Like Harvey stated earlier, there may be a type of battery "inductance effect" for high-speed transients.

I am going to suggest something similar to that based on input impedance.  The battery has a "dynamic impedance" model for when high-speed voltage transients enter at the positive terminal.  For something on the order of a few microseconds, when the battery is first hit with a voltage transient, it acts like a very high input resistance and a very small input capacitance.  We know what happens with the input capacitance, you get dv/dt current to ground.

I want to focus on the dynamic input resistance.  This only lasts for a few microseconds before you drop down to the input charging resistance that might only be 0.5 ohms or less.  So the 500 nSec high-voltage spike hits the battery and is "dissipated" in the battery as a v-squared/R dissipation, where R is a very large value for just a few microseconds.

It is highly doubtful that the battery is actually charging under this voltage transient condition, because you normally associate charging with a very low battery input resistance.

In theory, this can be confirmed by measuring the current going into the battery when the 500 nSec high-voltage transient hits it.  If what I am saying is true, you should measure relatively little input current.  You can actually measure the battery input resistance under the voltage transient condition since you have the transient voltage and the transient current.

Exactly where this transient spike energy goes in the battery is perhaps for somebody else to answer, I am not a battery expert.  I have a feeling it is perhaps more than 90% energy dissipation as heat and less than 10% battery recharging.

The net result of this theory, and I stress that it is a theory only, is that the big voltage transients going into the battery that are about 500 nSec wide (to be confirmed with measurements) do not really charge the battery.  The individual spikes have very little energy in them, and almost all of it becomes resistive heat.

The net result is that the 500 nSec voltage transients at the battery positive terminal are simply too fast and too short in duration to charge the battery.

You can contrast this with a typical Bedini motor configuration.  In this case the spikes going into the charging battery are much much longer in duration, so the spikes are "slower."  The charging battery has more than enough time to react to these slow spikes and really gets charged.  The battery reduces the charging spikes to low-voltage current spikes, that are just a few volts max above the battery voltage.  That's in distinct contrast to what Aaron is seeing in his recent clips, where the spikes are "too fast" for the battery to react and the spikes don't get muffled down to a low voltage at all.

Some food for thought for everybody!

MileHigh

Hi MH

My test involved carefully observing the rate of discharge on a voltmeter across the battery with and without a series diode and with and without a flyback diode across the inductive resistor, not looking at the shunt resistor. I'm not saying that there is no spiking back to the battery but I am reasonably confident in saying that any spikes getting back into the battery are not charging the battery to any useful extent. The situation is very different where the inductor discharge is directed to a secondary battery as in the case of a Bedini monopole motor / charger.

Hoppy

[Harvey]

The simple solution here is to simply put an ammeter in the supply path and run the circuit without oscillation and check the average current draw, then put it in oscillation and see if the current draw drops. If it does, then energy is being put back, if it doesn't then its not.

I have a cold beer in my fridge for anyone that can prove the current reduces instead of increases as the heater goes into oscillation.

[forest]

The simple solution here is to simply put an ammeter in the supply path and run the circuit without oscillation and check the average current draw, then put it in oscillation and see if the current draw drops. If it does, then energy is being put back, if it doesn't then its not.

I have a cold beer in my fridge for anyone that can prove the current reduces instead of increases as the heater goes into oscillation.

I know someone who would want one ;-) Unfortunately he is gone.:-(
I know that I have nothing interesting to say to all of you , respectable EE experts, but maybe you should listen somebody else ... ?

"I mean this: If you pass a current into a circuit with large self-induction, and no radiation takes place, and you have a low resistance, there is no
possibility of this energy getting out into space; therefore, the impressed impulses accumulate."
Nikola Tesla