Claimed OU circuit of Rosemary Ainslie

[fuzzytomcat]

In SPICE, the big Drain voltage spike is not aligned with the negative spike on the shunt, as you can see from the SPICE scope shot.

In the real world, they can be, and when this happens there is a huge negative power spike (3000W in my setup) that amounts to a significant power when averaged over the entire cycle. In my case about -1.2W. It so happens that in my test, I ended up with -1.26W measured in the MOSFET.

So if they are aligned, does this huge power spike amount to real power? Even though it can be seen on the scope, I don't believe it does. I changed the grounding (which shifted the phase of the spike and ringing on the shunt) slightly in my circuit and the MOSFET power went down significantly. Here is a summary of the two test runs, only difference was grounding:

Test run #1:
POS = 1.1727W
PIL = 2.3818W
PIM = -1.2635W
PIS = 0.0544W

Test Run #2
POS = 1.4678W
PIL = 1.8703W
PIM = -0.4488W
PIS = 0.0463W

Note:
1) in each case POS-(PIL+PIM+PIS) = 0 which in theory is correct.
2) in Test Run #2 PIM is much less negative, and POS is approaching PIL.
3) the TRAA in both cases was equal.

In test #1 the temp rise above ambient TRAA was about 7ºC. In the CONTROL test, the pure DC power required to achieve the same TRAA was 1.302W. As a check, the load resistor was powered with 2.3818W as was measured to be its power in this test, and the TRAA settled to about 13ºC.

Clearly the measured 2.3818W in the load resistor is incorrect, and in reality is probably much closer to the CONTROL value of 1.3W. In fact the measured POS was not too far off at 1.1718W, but this is obviously measuring low.

Wiring, grounding, and electrostatic effects seem to be influencing the measured results (not the actual results as TRAA was equal in both tests), so it should be noted by all those testing and/or number-crunching, that the results may be skewed due to the aforementioned effects.

.99

.99

I'm getting really confused here all my testing devices are plugged into a UPS power supply as I stated earlier several times in this thread and at Energetic and have no problems with grounding and have a common ground point for my oscilloscope probes as photos of the circuit setup show. I would think having all the fine test equipment you wouldn't have any grounding problems at all or have taken care of them eons ago.

You have not provided us with any photos of a running set up as of yet.

You are using a PCB from groundloop and have little to no wiring as I do using a bread board as shown in my images of my running set ups.

You provide us with no data that can in any way be verified by anyone and I have continued to provide any and all data for complete review.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PROVIDE US WITH SOMETHING ....... I JUST POSTED RESULTS FROM MY TEST #7 ( http://www.energeticforum.com/71364-post2970.html )  ...... I'M REALLY STARTING TO WORRY HERE ??

Fuzzy

[Rosemary Ainslie]

.99

I'm getting really confused here all my testing devices are plugged into a UPS power supply as I stated earlier several times in this thread and at Energetic and have no problems with grounding and have a common ground point for my oscilloscope probes as photos of the circuit setup show. I would think having all the fine test equipment you wouldn't have any grounding problems at all or have taken care of them eons ago.

You have not provided us with any photos of a running set up as of yet.

You are using a PCB from groundloop and have little to no wiring as I do using a bread board as shown in my images of my running set ups.

You provide us with no data that can in any way be verified by anyone and I have continued to provide any and all data for complete review.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PROVIDE US WITH SOMETHING ....... I JUST POSTED RESULTS FROM MY TEST #7 ( http://www.energeticforum.com/71364-post2970.html )  ...... I'M REALLY STARTING TO WORRY HERE ??

Fuzzy

DITTO  Rose

[Rosemary Ainslie]

Which other data set of Glen's would you like looked at Rose?

I have done several data dumps (so yes I know how long these take, esp. when saving to old 3.5" floppy), and also have a good spreadsheet going. I may also mention that I am using 5 times the number of samples for my tests (that's right, 50,000 samples) as Glen, so it is taking even longer to dump the data.

Let me know which specific file you want crunched. Why is no one over there doing these?

.99

Poynt - you may well ask.  You're a fully subscribed member.     But I'm good with the crunching.  And I get the details from Harvey when I can't do it myself.  I tend to exaggerate my problems. 

So gallant Poynty.  Much appreciated.

[MileHigh]

.99:

That MOSFET question is interesting.  I think that some of the issues include the fact that the MOSFET both dissipates energy like a variable resistor and stores energy in it's capacitance and the capacitance is relevant as we look at the microsecond order transients that are happening.  Could it be that the fact that through one cycle the MOSFET stores and then discharges more energy than it dissipates, giving it a net negative power?  It starts to get hard to visualize these things.

The circuit is actually two different circuts depending on the direction the current is flowing.  That may come into play as you interpret your data.  You dropped a big hint that you made a breakthrough, looking forward to hearing more as things solidify.

The load resistor dissipative energy per cycle could be done just by looking at the current as I mentioned before.  The squared current = (0.0544/0.25) = 0.2176 amps squared.  Therefore the power dissipated in the load resistor is about (0.2176 x 10) = 2.176 watts.  This is not in accord at all with the DC control test showing 1.302 watts.  I am not trying to prove anything here, just crunch some numbers.  I can't remember if you are using a 0.25 ohm resistor and I don't think that you posted the precise measurements for the load and shunt resistor values either.

What about any 555 switching power being coupled into the MOSFET also?

Test run #1:
POS = 1.1727W
PIL = 2.3818W
PIM = -1.2635W
PIS = 0.0544W

Test Run #2
POS = 1.4678W
PIL = 1.8703W
PIM = -0.4488W
PIS = 0.0463W

Note:
1) in each case POS-(PIL+PIM+PIS) = 0 which in theory is correct.
2) in Test Run #2 PIM is much less negative, and POS is approaching PIL.
3) the TRAA in both cases was equal.

In test #1 the temp rise above ambient TRAA was about 7ºC. In the CONTROL test, the pure DC power required to achieve the same TRAA was 1.302W. As a check, the load resistor was powered with 2.3818W as was measured to be its power in this test, and the TRAA settled to about 13ºC.

Now I am going to shift gears and recrunch some numbers.  These numbers will not be in accord with what I just stated above.

The 1.302 watts pure DC power compared to the POS power of 1.173 watts seems to be showing something unusual in the DSO measurements again.  The fact that both runs generate the same real world heat power is also indicating that the DSO measurements are having a hard time.

Working back from 1.302 watts and knowing in fact that the MOSFET is dissipating power and not strictly a source of energy like the numbers indicate I will go out on a limb.

I am going to make some speculative tweaks based on your first test run.  You assume the POS power has to be the load power of about 1.3 watts plus the shunt power of about 0.05 watts plus the power dissipated in the MOSFET.  Let's say for example that the MOSFT dissipated power is 0.15 watts.  Then the speculative POS = 1.3 + 0.05 + 0.15 = 1.6 watts.  That's the best I can do, ballpark you true actual power consumption from the battery or power supply to be about 1.6 watts.

I feel confused and I am a bit surprised that the data is not falling nicely into place.  However, I sense that you are iterating on the analysis and will converge on the real solution.  That's the hard part that newbies, and free energy enthusiasts and believers seem to always skip, they see numbers that look good and think that they have cracked it.  It is wise to not be too hasty in cases like these.

Anyway, because I am confused here, what I would personally do would be to do a full energy audit trail through time for this circuit based on DSO measurements an whatever other tricks that I have at my disposal to help me.

From a bird's eye view in the first part of the cycle you have battery energy that gets burned off as heat and also stored.  In the second part of the cycle you have the stored energy becoming a second wave of heat and also going back to "recharge" the battery.

For the first heat wave, heat energy is dissipated in the load resistor, in the MOSFET switching, and in the shunt resistor.

For the second heat wave, heat energy is dissipated in the load resistor, the battery (assume some of this energy also charges the battery) , the shunt resistor, and the MOSFET body diode.  The source of this heat energy is the charged MOSFET capacitance and charged stray capacitance.

Anyway these were just some thoughts for pondering, not to be taken as definitive statements.

MileHigh

[forest]

MileHigh

Good idea about MOSFET capacitance. I very like it !
Could it be charged by voltage spike while mosfet is in falling slope of signal (shut off) ? If so then maybe it's possible to replace it with external capacitor charged at the same time ?
Hmm... conversion of negative HV spike into current ?