Joule Thief 101

[Magluvin]

Something ive been thinking about for some time.  It fits the topic because it is involved with the transformer function.


If we have a rod core, with say the primary on one end and a secondary on the other, where the pri and sec are not overlapped, when we put an ac input to the primary, loading the secondary should have the secondary producing an opposing field to the primary. No?

So with a toroid core, with primary on one side of the core and the secondary on the other side, when the primary induces the loaded secondary, and the secondary produces an opposing field, there is no longer a loop of field in the core as there should be both windings having their N pole fields facing each other in the core, and likewise the S pole fields opposing at the other end of the core in the open face of the core between the ends of the primary and secondary windings.

So it wouldnt be that the core is just saturated by increasing continuous loop of field in the core, it is sort of separating the core field holdings and we should be able to see field leakage N at one side of the core between the 2 windings ans S at the other during a half phase of operation, and the opposite happens at the open spaces of the core between the 2 windings.

Maybe im just tired. If it is so, it would seem we didnt know that before?

Mags

One more thing and i gotta git

Im just trying to straighten this out in my head so Im not lost in that area. And if what I think is correct, there may be something good here. Got an idea.

Now lets say we have a primary and secondary wound overlapping the whole core. Wind the sec first all the way around 1 time, 1 layer. Then wind the primary over top of that as a secondary layer, all the way around once.  Now we add an AC input to the primary and its field is in the core in a loop, changing polarity for each phase of the AC input. Fine and dandy, I agree on that. Now load the secondary. It will produce and opposing field compared to the primary and they should be canceling in the core, depending on the currents for each. 

If that the case, then when the primary and secondary  are able to produce equal amounts of field opposing each other, then there would be littlle field in the core as compared to just the primary with input and sec not loaded.

Strange. Sort of belittles the meaning of saturation of the core, in my mind as to what I thought it meant, when the max in and out are achieved and fields cancel at full power compared to what I had normally thought, and there is more flux in the core at idle with no load on the sec?

K. Im nuts  Need sleep

Mags

[MileHigh]

Just a minor wine glass update:  I am assuming that after the big reveal that there will be a lot of challenges, whining, moaning, complaining, resistance, disbelief and showboating.  The simple truth is that I did all of the "analysis" in my head - just in my head.  I didn't have do any Google searches or do any research at all - I just used my background and my wits.  Of course if I said that and just left it at that there would be no end to it, and it would devolve into more reams and reams of trash talk and drive Magluvin nuts.  So I did my Googling and after 20 minutes I have a bullet-proof backup for my upcoming reveal, and it is exactly like I knew it would be.  That will put a stop to the insanity and shut it down.

[Farmhand]

One more thing and i gotta git

Im just trying to straighten this out in my head so Im not lost in that area. And if what I think is correct, there may be something good here. Got an idea.

Now lets say we have a primary and secondary wound overlapping the whole core. Wind the sec first all the way around 1 time, 1 layer. Then wind the primary over top of that as a secondary layer, all the way around once.  Now we add an AC input to the primary and its field is in the core in a loop, changing polarity for each phase of the AC input. Fine and dandy, I agree on that. Now load the secondary. It will produce and opposing field compared to the primary and they should be canceling in the core, depending on the currents for each. 

If that the case, then when the primary and secondary  are able to produce equal amounts of field opposing each other, then there would be littlle field in the core as compared to just the primary with input and sec not loaded.

Strange. Sort of belittles the meaning of saturation of the core, in my mind as to what I thought it meant, when the max in and out are achieved and fields cancel at full power compared to what I had normally thought, and there is more flux in the core at idle with no load on the sec?

K. Im nuts  Need sleep

Mags

Mags here is a link to a good guide for transformers. The clipping below explains what your post above says.

http://sound.westhost.com/xfmr.htm

Preface
One thing that obviously confuses many people is the idea of flux density within the transformer core. While this is covered in more detail in Section 2, it is important that this section's information is remembered at every stage of your reading through this article. For any power transformer, the maximum flux density in the core is obtained when the transformer is idle. I will reiterate this, as it is very important ...

For any power transformer, the maximum flux density is obtained when the transformer is idle.

The idea is counter-intuitive, it even verges on not making sense. Be that as it may, it's a fact, and missing it will ruin your understanding of transformers. At idle, the transformer back-EMF almost exactly cancels out the applied voltage. The small current that flows maintains the flux density at the maximum allowed value, and represents iron loss (see Section 2). As current is drawn from the secondary, the flux falls slightly, and allows more primary current to flow to provide the output current.

[sm0ky2]

author=sm0ky2 link=topic=8341.msg476908#msg476908 date=1457600937]


And what is the wine glass analogy smOKy ?--is it MH approved?.

apparently not, since after I posted nearly 4 pages about the physics concerning such event, I am still accused of
"not answering the two questions"......

Show me a system(an electrical circuit such as a JT type circuit) where every component of that system operates at it's natural resonant frequency.


Brad

to begin I would cite all the works of Edwin Armstrong, and Nikola Tesla
after those who we first deny are forced to concede.
I shall send you to school for the remainder of the evening.
https://www.nde-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/EddyCurrents/Instrumentation/resonantcircuits.htm
http://www.brats-qth.org/training/advanced/techasp10a.htm

after which time, we can begin your Jedi training.
once an understanding of basic concepts are gained, we can move on to more advanced circuit designs,
and the works of other inventors in this arena.

[sm0ky2]

Total system resonance is not a prerequisite for resonant electronic circuits. Where on earth did you get that idea from.?

A simple am radio receiver is a compound circuit (a total system) that relies on tunable resonance in one minor portion of the total circuitry only, that is, the tunable antenna system, which resonates in 'tune' with the radio carrier frequency being 'tuned' for. The rest of the circuit need not display any resonant activities whatsoever. The rest of the compound circuit is designed to separate the amplitude variations in the carrier signal (the audio frequency signal that's superimposed on the carrier) from the carrier frequency itself (for which the antenna system has been tuned to resonate with), and then amplify the separated electrical audio frequency, before converting it to sound via the speaker.
Resonance is not required in the separation, amplification and conversion stages of the circuit.
Cheers

Yes,. you are correct, that in standard practices, total circuits are NOT designed to be resonant.
And as long as the feedback is blocked from interfering with the resonant portion of the circuit,
then it should operate properly.

However, I would argue that these are not truly resonant.
only partially resonant.
What I am talking about are circuits designed to be entirely resonant, among each of its' parts.