Joule Thief 101

[MileHigh]

Brad:

Repost something i have gotten wrong on this thread MH

Post #157:

Set up a bifilar coil with a steel laminated core,where the core is two separate halves -1 half will see the flow of charge into the magnetic center,and the other half will see the flow of charge out from the magnetic center. Set up a simple self oscillating circuit,and run the LED off the two core halves,where you two core halves act like capacitor plates,and are charged every pulse. this way you can bring your frequency up to a resonant state,where the amplitude is at maximum,and power draw at a minimum.

What is this electronics gibberish talk?  "Flow of charge into the magnetic center" and "flow of charge out from the magnetic center" doesn't even make any sense.   "Run the LED off the two core halves" doesn't even make any sense.

The whole thing is ridiculous incomprehensible fantasy electronics baby talk and it's hard to take you seriously about electronics when you talk like some character reading off bad lines in a 1952 low-budget science fiction movie.

Like I told you elsewhere in this thread, you have said some things that are "not even wrong."  In other words they are so wrong as to be so completely baffling that you can't even make sense of them if you are given a lot of leeway and your bizarre prose is passed through a "untwist Brad's comments and fill in the blanks" filter.

You asked for it so I am just responding.

MileHigh

[NickZ]

   
   MH:
   You are the one trapped in an unproven science. Just like Einstein.
   PROVE to us that the movement of the magnet is the CAUSE of where the energy is coming from. Don't just repeat what you've heard, like a parrot.  You are trying to explain it by material corporal causes. Energy like light it's not a particle, and is not dependent on physical causes, it's the other way around. 
  Field effects, are the cause. As Tesla mentioned. And where do these "field effects" come from? The combination of the Aether combined with voxtexial fields. No Aether, no vortexes,  no material universe. Matter doesn't make matter, without the presence these fields.
    You wouldn't be here or on the Kapandze thread, if you didn't believe there's more to it than what we've been told.

[MileHigh]

It is nice to know that MH does not know what a capacitor is.

If you know your stuff it is not very difficult to decipher "gibberish", it may get a little taxing at times but not overly difficult.

I have known many technicians over the years,, good parts changers but bad diagnosticians.

I sure as hell know what a capacitor is.  This is just stupid gratuitous attacking of me, stop it please.

Go ahead and explain what Brad is talking about then, explain it all for the viewing audience.

What does this really mean Webby?

Set up a bifilar coil with a steel laminated core,where the core is two separate halves -1 half will see the flow of charge into the magnetic center,and the other half will see the flow of charge out from the magnetic center. Set up a simple self oscillating circuit,and run the LED off the two core halves,where you two core halves act like capacitor plates,and are charged every pulse. this way you can bring your frequency up to a resonant state,where the amplitude is at maximum,and power draw at a minimum.

Let us know.

[Johan_1955]

Guess what?  After that I acknowledged that Helmholtz resonators can be used on the air intake and the exhaust.  So how many times are you going to repeat that?  An ICE itself excluding the intake and exhaust doesn't make use of resonance.

Google pasting is not an answer, period.

Helmholtz, is only working on normal aspirated engines, with a calculated Air-Box.

But every TD constructor, would take effect from the driving wind, above the helmet of F-1, and so lost complete this Helmholtz induction solution!

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A high Tuned 2-stroke, is Resonant in every single Cavity, and on the 'Power-band' or 'On the Pipe' it Resonate's between the serie fluide Resonant cavity's, this last also like I described in my first explanation.

The Reed / I-disc, is a Fet, the Crankshaft case and Cilinder is a ................ ?

Why is a 4-stroke far over 100 degrees Celsius, and a optimum 2-stroke only 55-60 degrees Celsius with a exhaust over 250 degrees Celsius?

Still outstanding: Did you find / goegle the right timing for a 2-STroke, and why so late?

Demanding like a slave princess, but not delivering!

YOUR own line: Stop making a complete fool of yourself with Engine goegle from the past, books are always behind the hand-on hands!

[sm0ky2]

Smoky2:

You have to stop this business of either making a straw man or saying things about me that you can't possibly know.  I could just as easily say that in the 1980s you worked as a male stripper on the Las Vegas strip and made good tips, but I can't possibly know that, can I?  Stop the nonsense.

I don't need to make this stuff up. you already told us yourself, that you have never built a device intended to be resonant.
Also, that you have never built a Joule Thief circuit.
The only nonsense here is that which you spout out about things you clearly do not understand.

I have absolutely nothing revolutionary to offer.  I asked for simple answers and you said that you couldn't do that.  Your complex answers started to resemble a word salad.  If you can't answer simple questions with simple answers, then for me that means that you don't have a fundamental and basic understanding of resonance.  You are welcome to prove me wrong any time you want.

If the simplest answers to your complex questions look like "word salad" to you, then perhaps there are basic fundamental aspects of science, physics, and perhaps life itself that you have yet to grasp.
As such would be required to gain an understanding of much more complex aspects of the same science, physics, and life
- I can't tell you what is in your "salad".
But, if perhaps you could figure that part out on your own, I (or others) could help you choose the right dressing.
I don't need to prove you wrong, but rather I would help you find the right answers.
To me, it does not matter. you can continue on with your lack of understanding, and unwillingness to learn.
It's "everyone else" that's wrong right?

... I have a feeling that we are never going to see anything even remotely close to this.  What probably will happen is that you are going to "hunt" for resonance on the circuit itself and try all sorts of variations and look for the "magic."  It will probably end up like some kind of needle in a haystack search, an exercise in trial and error.  Turn pots and hope for the best.  Will we ever see any kind of timing diagram that clearly shows a "resonant Joule Thief" I wonder.  At least I annotated the main part of the timing diagram for a standard Joule Thief and I could easily have added the approximate current traces myself.

MileHigh

what you an I consider "standard" are two completely irrelevant things.
To you a "standard JT" is some assume set of components related to the JT 'fad' that occurred much after its' invention.

To me, there is no "standard", there is only an intended function. What that function "is", cannot even be agreed upon in this topic,
or in the other 900 Joule Thief threads that exist out there.
Most will argue to the death that the entire point of this device is to "light an led".
Personally, i will tell you, the LED is about as relevant to this device, as is the color of a court jester's clothing.
The actual "load" is a secondary circuit, not included in the schematics of the "standard JT".
and here is why:
This was isolated in an earlier topic, from a series of self-resonant oscillators.
when the "load" was reduced to a single coil transformer,
with an 'indicator' LED, the "Joule Thief" was born.
Prior to that moment in history, the circuit as a whole, was a replication of a "micro-TPU" on Bruce's breadboard.
Despite all the claims to ownership over this crap, it was the collective evolution of an attempt to replicate
a simple looped-timing oscillator, that used the field collapse of the ferrite to charge a capacitor, which re-started the cycle.
the LED wasn't on the board at first, but the builders wanted to be able to "see" that it was on.
The load was originally drawn as a second part of the circuit, connected across the transformer.
The operation of the "joule thief" primary circuit, is not affected by the load in a direct manner.
The magnetic induction at self-resonance, is so great in comparison to the power levels through the electric coil,
that the magnetic drain represented on the load has so significant affect on the primary coil.
Thus the load needs not be present in the circuit diagram.
and the output, without this secondary load circuit:
can be simply depicted as the Waveform across the primary coil. (end to end, skip over the center tap)
Any transformer function, on a load circuit, can be determined by this signal, and thus it is not necessary to have the load present.
As, such I will not waste anyones time, presenting load circuits to attach to your JT.
But for aesthetics, One would do so as Mags has done in his homemade coil above.
Using one coil as the JT primary, and the other side to drive your "load", which can be whatever you choose.
In this manner, the load is magnetically coupled to the ferrite, and electrically isolated from the primary circuit.
And will operate just like any other transformer.
The Battery? - believe it or not, was added because the system being replicated no longer operated in self resonance, and thus there was no energy to store in the capacitor. The cap itself was also removed, for simplicity - leaving a battery driven switching circuit, that flashed an LED so rapidly, it looked like it stayed on.
"what is a joule thief"? a resonator that doesn't resonate? or did someone build it wrong?
I guess that is a matter of perspective.

@MH - I'm not sure how to speak in anything you wouldn't call "word salad".
Words are a necessary part of communication.
If the question is, can I describe advanced physics concepts, such as resonance, in the words of a 3rd grader?
No, I cannot. Maybe a 3rd grade teacher is more equipped for this sort of task.

Here is what you need to know and understand, first and foremost:

Frequency vs Wavelength
Physical Dimensions vs wavelength
Physical dimensions vs Frequency

live and breathe these fundamental relationships
understand them as simply as Ohm's Law, and then maybe the things I have stated previously will look less like salad.
Why and How something resonates, relates directly to this tri-functional relationship.
And inversely to the resistances applied upon the resonance by the materials properties of space and matter.
Most of these are constants that have to do with density, crystalline structure, elasticity, resistances to stress and strain, etc.

This is a summary of what I stated before, just without any reference to the mathematics involved.

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There is nothing "magic" about resonance. It is a natural event, that occurs everywhere, in everything.
All that exists, is our ability to disrupt this resonance. And at that, we have become experts.

There is no need to "hunt" for resonances in the Joule Thief. Simply stop destroying them.
The less thought that goes into their design, the less effort placed in intricicies, and perfection,
the less of the original device exists, and the less knowledge about it can be derrived by reverse engineering.

What would happen to a Tesla coil, if we tried to throw together a minimilist version, one could solder together in the palm of their hand?
Sure, we might be able to get something that made a spark, and it may look similar to the original.
But what happens to those sparks when the tesla coil goes out of resonance? What happens when we the coils are no longer perfect,
or the wrong # of turns for the device, or even something as subtle as ending the last turn 1/4 of a turn too early?

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The way I see it, therere is 3 ways to go about this:

1) calculate the circuit, and choose your components to be resonant at a specific frequency.
      My brother does this, for me that is way too much work, I can tell you how, but im not going to sit there and crunch numbers all day.
   For someone using this method, they already know what size resistor to use for which ferrite, and which transistors etc. all they need is a few numbers off the side of the battery, a quick V check, and they can build a resonator in a few seconds, given a box of misc. components.

2) Measuring - This is where you take your scope channels and watch the images as you play around with every parameter you can find.
           This is not really the best way to go about it, but probably the simplest if you want to "see" the results of the system operating near a resonant node. Keep in mind, you may have completely mismatched components, and may not be able to work.
So this method requires swapping components, and a lot of trial and error.
The result is, exactly that, a result with no understanding of what or how you got there.
But if this is your choice - you look for a 'clean' sinusoidal waveform, then within this range, you approach a node of maximum amplitudes.

and 3) a combination of calculation and forethought, going into the selection of components, that will operate within desired ranged.
    Then a carefully measured and calculated adjustment of parameters, so as to approach a desired resonant node(s).
This is the method I myself choose to operate by. This allows me to both have a basic grasp of what is going on in the circuit, im terms of the switching function of the transistor(s), and the SRF of the ferrite while also allowing for imperfections on my part, and a degree of adjustability.
While at the same time, logging the parameters adjusted, so as to track changes in one part of the circuit, across another domain.

The first method is strictly for your Tesla's, Armstrong's, Mozart's' , those type of people.... Not everyone can sustain their entire attention in this manner.

The second method is more for the bench-top experimenter or technician, who doesn't want to waste energy on theory and math.

The 3rd method is more suitable for the engineer or physicist who likes both theory and experimentation.

All three paths can lead you to the same place.