Joule Thief 101

[Magluvin]

Here I have edited one of the previous pics to describe what Im saying....

The first pic is of 2 caps, same value, both at 0v.

The second pic is of the left cap charged to a particular voltage.

The third pic is after cap to cap connection.

This is to show that the 'total number of electrons in both caps' is the same throughout the process and just shows the ratio when charged and then cap to cap connection. We never lose or gain electrons in the system. They are only moved or say pumped from one plate to the other, but while charging the total remains equal. One in and one out at a time to say as an example. So if we do a ratio electron count, and we know the other variables as in the caps capacitance value and the electron ratio change in the left caps plates when charged, then we should be able to calculate the voltage in the left cap when charged. Every time. Then when we do the cap to cap deal, we again should be able to calculate the voltage in each when they are equalized. And each time we do the count, we should be able to do the math to find the voltage.

So in an ideal system, how could 0ohm vs resistance(any value) affect the electron count values changing the voltage outcome for each cap? Where did the extra electrons come from to have 7.07v in each cap from 10v initial charge in the ideal model vs 5v on each cap in the resistance energy losing model? Thats the big question.

If we get the same outcome, ideal or real world, how could we say we lost half the energy in heat, if there wasnt any heat in the ideal model? ?

Ok. Im done for now.  I cannot further explain it. Let me know where I am going wrong, if you can.

Mags

One more thing...

"If we get the same outcome, ideal or real world, how could we say we lost half the energy in heat, if there wasnt any heat in the ideal model?"

Soo, if the resistance is NOT the cause of the loss, did we get the heat if any for free???

Mags

[Magluvin]

One more thing...

"If we get the same outcome, ideal or real world, how could we say we lost half the energy in heat, if there wasnt any heat in the ideal model?"

Soo, if the resistance is NOT the cause of the loss, did we get the heat if any for free? ??

Mags

What if the actual electron count 'equalization' in the ideal system were as I show and it did give us 7.07v in each cap from the precharged 10v cap. Then we would have to had lose some electrons somewhere to be at 5v on each cap in the real world system doing an electron ratio count. If so, where did they go? If so our total electron count would be depleted somehow, then how? Certainly they are not stored or trapped in the resistor/resistance or they would become negatively charged components in the system. Also if we are losing electrons from the system then our whole system would be positively charged due to missing electrons. 

It doesnt make sense. the only thing I can say we lost is pressure and resistance didnt cause the loss. I mean, that is the unit of storage in this case, pressure.
1MOHM resistance, 50% loss. 1 ohm resistance, 50% loss.  1 pico ohm resistance, 50% loss. .0000000001pico ohm, 50% loss. Always 5v in each cap from 10v. But ideal caps are said to be zero loss.


Mags

[Magluvin]

OK MH

I ask this question of all the EE guys here.

Can a voltage of 4 volts exist across an ideal inductor,(where an ideal inductor has a resistance value of 0 ohms), for 3 seconds as stated in MHs question?.

Poynt,PW,Verpies-ETC ?


Brad

Heck, with an ideal coil with say ideal field paths, with any initial current flow, the back emf may be equal to the input?    Like the super conducting plate with the mag that just floats  What is the mechanism that keeps it afloat? Is it oscillating itself in position??   
Maybe no  currents would ever happen.
Maybe just the initial static field charge when hitting the switch sets off the ideal bemf standoff and no actual current ever flows in the ideal inductor.


Mags

[Pirate88179]

Mags, I think something is wrong here.

How many electrons are in a charged cap of 2.7 volts and 3,000 Farads?

How many electrons are in a charged cap of 2.7 volts and 100 pico farads? 

According to what I think you are saying, the amount of electrons would be the same which is not possible in my opinion.  I think the problem is that I was taught that you need to consider capacitance and not just volts or amps.  My point is that 2 caps of the same voltage could have a varied capacitance and hence a totally different amount of stored energy. 

If I am mistaken in your taking voltage as the measure for how many electrons are in a cap, then I am sorry and must have misunderstood.

Bill

[Magluvin]

Mags, I think something is wrong here.

How many electrons are in a charged cap of 2.7 volts and 3,000 Farads?

How many electrons are in a charged cap of 2.7 volts and 100 pico farads? 

According to what I think you are saying, the amount of electrons would be the same which is not possible in my opinion.  I think the problem is that I was taught that you need to consider capacitance and not just volts or amps.  My point is that 2 caps of the same voltage could have a varied capacitance and hence a totally different amount of stored energy. 

If I am mistaken in your taking voltage as the measure for how many electrons are in a cap, then I am sorry and must have misunderstood.

Bill

"According to what I think you are saying, the amount of electrons would be the same which is not possible in my opinion."

Not at all.  Id say the pic below would represent the way it is in my mind. In that tiny cap, fewer electron count ratio would produce the same voltage as a larger count ratio in a larger cap, like in the pic. Both caps are the same voltage considering they are in parallel. So what I have said didnt sink in I suppose.

In a very tiny cap, 1 electron taken from on plate to the other will increase the voltage/pressure more than 1 taken from one plate to the other of a larger cap value.


" My point is that 2 caps of the same voltage could have a varied capacitance and hence a totally different amount of stored energy.  "

But we are talking about the cap to cap situation where the caps are theoretically identical.


"If I am mistaken in your taking voltage as the measure for how many electrons are in a cap, then I am sorry and must have misunderstood."

No problem.

Mags