STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM

[k4zep]

Stephan:

Just a minor correction for you, the tau a.k.a. "time constant" is L/R, not L*R.

So from the cap charging measurements we will estimate that the average power that you can recover from the back-EMF spike from the coil is somewhere around 35 or 45 milliwatts.  If K4zep was to freeze a frame on his scope when the motor is turning at its steady-state speed then you can easily calculate the average motor power consumption.  You have the voltage, current, and ON and OFF times, so the power consumption calculation is pretty trivial.  I think that it is fair to say for K4zep's setup or the Steorn setup the power consumption of the motor itself is much larger than any possible back-EMF recovery based on the data that we have seen today.

You made a few references about overcoming this situation by using a much larger toroidal inductor to that your ON time is less than 1/5 tau, or time constant.  This is not going to work because then you will never manage to saturate the core and the motor will not run.

Beyond this, there is the issue of really being sure that the core is fully saturated, assuming that is your goal.  I am not sure if K4zep made any measurements to be sure if the core was fully saturated or not.  The less saturated the core is, then it "does not completely disappear" and therefore the motor will run at a lower speed.

K4zep:

I think that you made a few references to arranging your four wires that make up your toroidal coil so the inductance measures nearly zero so that the coil becomes a resistive element only.  If I am understanding you correctly then this does not make sense - with that coil wiring configuration you will not be able to saturate the core and the motor won't work.

Yes, that drives me nuts.  Something is going on there and I don't have a handle on it yet either, it just runs!!!!!

Here is where I think the discussion is right now:

Some measurements were made of the back-EMF of the coil and the average power is only in the tens of milliwatts. Correct The average power consumption of the motor itself (the energizing of the toroidal coil) is probably three or four watts. Correct These measurements are backed up by the scope traces.  In the case of the Steorn setup, the potential recovered back-EMF power is proportionally much smaller as shown in the scope traces of Sean's demo.Correct

Therefore, the idea of using the back-EMF from the toroidal coil itself to "get over the hump" and demonstrate the possibility of OU is highly unlikely but not completely ruled out.  I agree completelyIt would require that the power recovered from the separate coil energy recovery system (the pick-up coils in Steorn's setup) be nearly the same as the amount of power consumed to drive the motor.Actually the generator has to have adaquate input (torque) to generate more energy than used.  Therefore the motor must be ou to provide this energy

To repeat, for any chance of OU where we also use the recovered back-EMF power from the toroidal coil, then the separate coil energy recovery system would have to generate nearly the same amount of power as that consumed by the toroidal coil.Back emf recovery which is miniscule + generator output has to equal total electrical and mechanical losses to keep running.  ??

I will make an important statement about the separate coil energy recovery system.  Sean clearly stated that it is a simple vanilla system where the coils output into a full-wave bridge rectifier and then charge the battery.  Many of you have played with these types of setups and you all know that there is no "magic" here.  This is just a mundane standard circuit and many of you have observed them first-hand yourselves by adding the setup to a Bedini motor, etc.  I can envision some of the true believers in Steorn insisting that there must be something special about the pick-up coils that tap into energy from Xanadu or whatever.  I will state categorically ahead of time that I reject this unfounded speculation.  It is a vanilla energy recovery system, an ordinary generator configuration that generates power the old-fashioned way.  Don't blind yourself by thinking otherwise.  I agree, without the MOTOR being OU by a factor of about 3 to one, it will not work

So, let's forget about the back-EMF power from the toroidal coil for now because we know it is very small.  Let's move on to the real issue of power into the motor as compared to the power out of the motor from the energy recovery coils as per Steorn's setup.

So, how do you make some sort of reasonable estimate of the average power out?  We already know what the average power in is, the scope traces clearly show it and it would be trivial to make the proper measurements.  We also can see a tangible manifestation of the input power because K4zep has remarked about how hot the toroidal coil gets after running the motor for a few minutes.  From the perspective of the battery, this motor looks mostly like a resistive load that burns off battery power and turns it into heat power.

So, we know the average power into the motor, perhaps two or three watts (to be confirmed by somebody) Again, mine is 5-6 watts and this is really only a demo unit just to show the motor effect works.  and we want to make an estimate of the average power out from the energy pick-up coils.

How do you do this estimate?Simple, output rectified if not sine wave by FWBR, filtered and P=EI, formulas for Sine wave AC real power into load available but as this is a DC system, simple. Thanks for your very straight forward questions/observation.

MileHigh

[k4zep]

Why "every possible arrangement conceivable"?! Only one is enough (and there are many). When the magnetic field collapses, the energy it stored is converted in electrical energy which can be recovered without difficulty.
In the magnetic area, to open the circuit of a coil carrying a current is the same as in the electric area to shortcut a charged capacitor. In the first one we have to recovered the magnetic energy of the magnetic field (energy density = B²/2*m0), and in the second case, the energy in the electric field (energy density = E²*e0/2). There is no magic.
If Steorn claims the recovered energy is more than that one initially stored, Steorn has to prove it, not me.Yes, we all are holding our breath on that A motor powered by a charged battery is not a proof! A 1.5v, 10 A/h battery can easily sustain a low friction motor for days even for weeks.Correct


There is no interest in encouraging anyone to waste time in conventional devices known from the XIXth century, and to believe instead of analysing the facts. I suggest to spend time in more profitable tracks and to not expand the noise around Steorn while waiting their proofs.Correct

[k4zep]

@exhiloest,

Steorn has’t yet shown proof for overunity.  Correct However, Steorn has shown practical elimination of back emf. How is that conventional?  Actually a bifilar coil does eliminate BEMF OR as the motor will run the same direction on either direction of current flow, you can wire even multiples of toroids in bucking mode, balanced inductance and resistance and balance out the back EMF, both works.

I haven’t even seen yet proof that even the negligible back emf is due to the presence of the rotor. It very well may be that that’s due to imperfections in the making of the coil and will show itself even in absence of rotor. @k4zep may help us easily in clarifying this -- show the osciloscope traces i absence of rotor and see iif there's the same slight back emf. JUST CHECKED, background output of non energized coil is less than 2 mv pp, looks like noise, nothing to photograph.

[hartiberlin]

Stephan:

Just a minor correction for you, the tau a.k.a. "time constant" is L/R, not L*R.

Many thanks. I calculated earlier something with the timconstant tau=R*C from a cap and mixed
this up. You are right, at the coil tau is L/R.
I corrected this now in my earlier postings.
Many thanks.

So from the cap charging measurements we will estimate that the average power that you can recover from the back-EMF spike from the coil is somewhere around 35 or 45 milliwatts.  If K4zep was to freeze a frame on his scope when the motor is turning at its steady-state speed then you can easily calculate the average motor power consumption.  You have the voltage, current, and ON and OFF times, so the power consumption calculation is pretty trivial.  I think that it is fair to say for K4zep's setup or the Steorn setup the power consumption of the motor itself is much larger than any possible back-EMF recovery based on the data that we have seen today.

That is right.
Because of the small setup and not optimized magnets and too large airgaps
and too low winding toroidal coil,
the power input compared to the BackEMF power recovery is not optimal in this case.

But if you build it much bigger with bigger magnets, small airgaps and
big L toroidal coils you can really get 90% of the inputted power back,
if you do it right.

You made a few references about overcoming this situation by using a much larger toroidal inductor to that your ON time is less than 1/5 tau, or time constant.  This is not going to work because then you will never manage to saturate the core and the motor will not run.

Well,you only need to use a higher voltage for the power supply,
then you reach the current level for saturation already at 1/5t of tau Ontime.

Maybe you need to use then 200 Volts as the supply voltage.

Then you would only need maybe 1 Watts of input power,
would get 0.9 Watts out via the BackEMF recycling circuit and
would get 3 Watts mechanical power output due to the rotation of the rotor
driving a mechanical load.

Regards, Stefan.

[k4zep]

So, suppose that that’s the case â€" both in absence and in presence of rotor oscilloscope traces remain the same â€" then that would be the ultimate proof for OU. No Eout/Ein measurement needed, no calorimetry etc. If traces remain the same then a supposed 100% energy balance for the coil in absence of rotor would have retained its 100% energy balance when rotor is present but when rotor in present there will be additional rotational energy coming “out of nothing”.

IF the mechanical energy coming out of the motor and expended in the generator is more than the equivelent electrical energy to power the toroids , then we have OU, if not, just another pretty motor

Now I'm going to eat breakfast, S&S and putter around while helping wife with honeydoos and now and then wander over to my closet/bench.........