New JT powering selfrunning E-light

[tinu]

@ Groundloop,

1. I say that putting a cap in and a cap out is a simple thing to do and that hasn’t been done, despite its simplicity, for a certain reason. The only reason I see for not doing that test is the device is not OU.

2. Shit was indeed thrown at him but no more than in other cases of unsubstantiated claims. The selfrunning E-lights was just the latest and the biggest one. (I can recall another one basically stating that a jt is over 99% efficient but there are more alike.) 

3. “A whole forum” was an exaggeration used to make a point. My apologies. I rephrase: advertisement for a site selling various items was involved in the whole process. Advertisement in itself is not a bad thing but in conjunction with unsubstantiated ground-shaking-wanna-be claims, I think it’s highly misleading and unfair for any potential buyer. I do not feel comfortable as a member of a forum that agrees (even tacitly) with such practices.

5. He admitted it by himself in at least a couple of relatively recent posts.

Best regards,
Tinu

[Groundloop]

@Tinu,

In one of his posts he stated that he had tested the setup with a charged
bcap on the input and then he fully (2,6 volt) charged an bcap on the output.

In general, using a capacitor instead of a rechargeable battery is not a good idea.
A capacitor has a very low internal DC resistance when empty and a relative
high internal DC resistance when fully charged. A rechargeable battery is the opposite,
high DC resistance when empty and low DC resistance when charged. Also, in a
capacitor you loose half the energy when you charge it. That way is it also
called a condenser. In a rechargeable battery you lose approx. 10% energy when
you charge it.

A standard JT is not over unity and he never said that in any posts. And no, the shit
trowing was indeed much worse than in other cases I have seen on this forum. People
did not even wait for a independent replication of the circuit. I have stated, and I will
state it again, I will replicate and test this circuit and will honestly report any findings,
being negative OU or positive OU. But people did NOT have the patient to wait for that.
Instead a barrage campaign of negative postings started, that, in my opinion, was
there for one reason only, get this person off the forum as fast as possible.

Free energy researchers has been advertising products and other stuff as long as I have
been a member on this forum. In no posts from the said inventor can I find evidence for
illegal advertising. I see no problem here, and the forum owner did not object.

Unsubstantiated ground-shaking-wanna-be claims is your opinion. From what I read
there was only free energy claims. And what is wrong with that? This is a
free energy forum and one should expect free energy claims to be made.

What he said was the he did sell some home made LED lights. What is wrong with that?
If a customer want to buy some battery powered led lights, then fine with me. If the
customers are happy with the lights, then what could be better?

I think the bottom line here is that all he did was to try to promote free energy. I also
believe he intentions was to share as much of his inventions as he could. My impression
of Gadget is that he is dedicated researcher of free energy and he did not deserve the
treatment he got from some people at this forum.

Best regards and season greetings,
Groundloop. 

[tinu]

@ Groundloop,

I wish we had more members like you…

I’ll be short as it is already late here and my internet connection is very poor for some reason.
I look forward with much interest to read about your tests conducted on the OU device (E-lights); hopefully you’ll have enough information to build and/or test and ultimately to cut the story one way or the other. I also hope that I’ll have to apologize to you, Gadget and others.

Regarding caps, I consider jt as quite a good isentropic device although it did not result so from my previous posts. Getting closer to ideal isentropy depends, of course, of many factors but I could easily get 77-78% efficiency which is not bad for basic components and mild optimization. From those experiments I’ve learn how difficult is to increase efficiency after some point and I also know 99% is practically non-attainable, hence my (over)reaction…

I also appreciate another point you’ve made. See, I was expecting to hear OU claims mostly everywhere without disturbing me much, but not inhere. By mostly everywhere I mean other sites, newspapers, TV, movie tubes and so on. On a site like this, which is imho the most important free OU site in the world, my expectations were to read about serious claims, just because or exactly because it is the main voice in the field. Well, I now consider your views be more applicable and appropriate. I regret it but at least I’ll live longer and happier. Thanks!

I also agree that it was maybe too much on the subject and that the treatment Gadget got here was too harsh. I’d like to thank you again for your future efforts that will shed some light.

Merry Holidays,
Tinu

[MileHigh]

Groundloop:

In general, using a capacitor instead of a rechargeable battery is not a good idea.
A capacitor has a very low internal DC resistance when empty and a relative
high internal DC resistance when fully charged. A rechargeable battery is the opposite,
high DC resistance when empty and low DC resistance when charged. Also, in a
capacitor you loose half the energy when you charge it. That way is it also
called a condenser. In a rechargeable battery you lose approx. 10% energy when
you charge it.

Let me add insight in your comment about the capacitor's internal DC resistance.  The capacitor's straight DC resistance to pumping charge into it is basically zero.  The capacitor plates are conductors.  When you look at a capacitor in a circuit and you charge it to a certain voltage, then the DC resistance is infinite, it acts like an open circuit.  This assumes that there is a constant DC voltage across it.

What you are really talking about is the apparent DC impedance of the capacitor.  The instant you begin to charge a capacitor sitting at zero volts with one amp of current the impedance is zero.  If the capacitor is sitting at 10 volts, and you start pumping one amp of current into it, at the instant you start doing this, the apparent impedance is (10/1) = 10 ohms.  If you keep pumping one amp of current into it the apparent impedance keeps on climbing as the capacitor voltage continues to increase.

For a rechargeable battery, the DC charging resistance is low when you start and low when the battery is fully charged.  However, if you start to overcharge it then the DC charging resistance goes up.  The battery shows excessive voltage implying a higher internal charging resistance and it starts to get hot because there are no more chemical reagents left in the battery to absorb the charge and therefore the battery starts acting like a resistor and begins to dissipate the charging energy as heat.

If you were interested you would might want to fully qualify a given battery to understand how it behaves in terms of it's charging input impedance and discharging output impedance over the complete charge/discharge cycle.  I have never done this but I assume that the charging input impedance and discharging output impedance are always different because they are based on chemical reactions going in different directions.  It is trivial to make the measurements but experimenters don't do them mostly because they don't know how and/or understand what they mean.

It's almost trivial, the battery charging and discharging impedance is just modeled by an imaginary set of resistors inside the battery in series with an ideal voltage source.  The value of these imaginary resistors tell you how much the voltage of the battery will drop under load or increase under charging.  So you just have to make a few measurements to determine the value of these resistors to know how the battery will respond to a given load and estimate how much energy is lost in the battery while it drives a load.  The value of these two resistors is not constant, and is a function of the charge state of the battery, the temperature, etc.  However, it is trivial to make the measurements to calculate the charging and discharging impedance values.

You don't loose half the energy in a capacitor when you charge it.  You are mistakenly taking the example of when one capacitor is discharged into another capacitor that's empty and you loose half of the energy.  In that example half the energy is lost in the wire resistance.  That does not apply to charging a capacitor in general.  A capacitor will store almost 100% of the energy you put into it.

With respect to Albert, he had a hard time because in the beginning he absolutely refused to concede that any testing needed to be done on his device.  That goes against the whole spirit of open sourcing your design and the free exchange of ideas.  I think that he has backed off a bit from that position.  There is a real world phenomenon that can happen to anyone where you misunderstand what your observing and you can be so sure of yourself that you are not open to debate.  Misunderstanding what you are observing happens all the time around here.  Sometimes finding the truth can take a week, sometimes it can take a year.

If people get your board and run their own tests that would be great.  If some of you have the patience and stick it out for the long run, then you will get to the truth.  Some of the number crunching I have seen indicates that it may take months.  The "standard test" is to trickle charge the ultracapacitor and then discharge back into the battery and start over.  Paul Lowerence said that with a 2400 mAh battery it would take 22 cycles to empty the battery without factoring in the efficiency of the recharging of the battery.  If you are optimistic and assume 50% recharging efficiency then it's roughly 40 cycles.  Then to make it more realistic, knowing that the battery will start to slow down and take more time to charge the cap, etc, then it may take 60 cycles before the battery will finally start to look dead dead dead.  That might take a long time to do.  It really would need to be automated and I compliment you and your dedication for making the board and writing the microcontroller code.

The laws of thermodynamics will get the last laugh if you are patient enough.

Plan B for me is more attractive:  Qualify the battery and actually measure the amount of energy in a full battery by running charge-discharge cycles and making measurements.  Then run the test for six weeks and measure the remaining energy in the battery.  You are going to find the battery will have lost energy.

MileHigh

[Groundloop]

@MileHigh,

Thank you for taking time to read my post.

I was talking in general terms and did not want to go into detail. My main point was that is is easier
to convert an high voltage spike to current in a low resitive load than in a high resistive load. Some
circuits will work better with a low resitive load.

Holiday greetings to you and your family.

Groundloop.